Posting Advice

[mgmt!]

There has been a recent post were a relatively inexperienced member posted some advice to another relatively inexperienced walker about a prospective winter walk in 5 or so days. The advice seemed to be rather ill thought and bordering on dangerous. While I accept there is no malice involved what drives people to offer others advice on things they really are not qualified ? My own thoughts are that I try not to offer advice on the site as most things are too retrospective, there are just too many things we don't know about the person or prospective conditions . Thankfully some other members have given the person some qualified advice on the proposed trip and maybe just have averted any possible mishaps

[NickyRannoch]

I echo these comments.

This is something that seems to happen online and I joking made a topic about it on here a few years ago.

Some people like to " have a bash" at giving advice. i have no doubt that it is driven by a desire to be helpful.

I have seen people respond to other topics on certain walks by stating they have never been on that particular hill or ridge but this is what they think anyway.

[BlackPanther]

I think there is a very thin line between giving INFO and giving ADVICE...

If I see somebody ask - how long does it take to get from A to B? It's natural to simply answer - such and such number of hours. That's just info... But if I add suggestions like: you will be OK on this route in winter, blah blah... That's an advice.

The beauty of internet...

[LeithySuburbs]

I also try to avoid giving advice for similar reasons. However, I have been known to offer my opinion on some of the "advice" which you have alluded to...

The problem with most advice is that it is subjective and/or conjectural. However, often it is presented as fact, which is a pet hate of mine (one reason I dislike politicians!).

what drives people to offer others advice on things they really are not qualified ?

I don't know but I would suggest a mixture of self-validation ("my opinion is the best") and over-eagerness to help based on enthusiasm rather than knowledge. Please understand that this post is just my opinion and is subjective by definition .

I have seen people respond to other topics on certain walks by stating they have never been on that particular hill or ridge but this is what they think anyway.

I'm not sure that just because you have not been somewhere that you can't offer an opinion on it (not that I'm suggesting that that is what you are suggesting - that would be second guessing ). I'm not sure how you would define the boundaries of that hypothetical...

[Red Peak]

I must admit, I find it hard to give advice as it's impossible to know the enquirer's level of competence or confidence. I would hate to tell someone that the Aonach Eagach was relatively straightforward, only to find that that person had attempted it and got into difficulty

I suppose it's ok to relate your experiences on a particular mountain or route, but make it quite clear that it's all relative; a walk or route that one person might find easy, others might not - or vice versa. Plus, things like weather and time of year have to be factored in. Some ridges, for example, may be a joy in good weather, but a nightmare after heavy rain.

Just my opinion, you understand

[NickyRannoch]

I also try to avoid giving advice for similar reasons. However, I have been known to offer my opinion on some of the "advice" which you have alluded to...

The problem with most advice is that it is subjective and/or conjectural. However, often it is presented as fact, which is a pet hate of mine (one reason I dislike politicians!).

what drives people to offer others advice on things they really are not qualified ?

I don't know but I would suggest a mixture of self-validation ("my opinion is the best") and over-eagerness to help based on enthusiasm rather than knowledge. Please understand that this post is just my opinion and is subjective by definition .

I have seen people respond to other topics on certain walks by stating they have never been on that particular hill or ridge but this is what they think anyway.

I'm not sure that just because you have not been somewhere that you can't offer an opinion on it (not that I'm suggesting that that is what you are suggesting - that would be second guessing ). I'm not sure how you would define the boundaries of that hypothetical...

It is a fine line as you say and not at all black and white and all depends on the individual anyway.

Give me a walk in the cairngorms and I'll probably come in at 20% under naismith , on the west coast 20% over as I'm fast over land rover tracks and a slow climber.

[nigheandonn]

Well, I don't often give advice - and I'm quite careful if I do for people wondering how to get started, because for me the biggest hurdle was realising that hills weren't a Special Thing that you could only go near if you were already an expert, and that small hills were really the same thing as walks that went up and down - because that doesn't mean you should go straight to huge ones! I suppose I'm actually fairly well qualified to give route advice for the eastern third of the Wainwrights, these days...

But I do think that most of the dubious advice can be dealt with - as it usually is on this forum - just by other people coming along and saying 'Well, I wouldn't...' or 'I'd think very carefully about...' - it's quite a busy place, and a consensus tends to build up.
What really upsets me - far more than bad advice - are the times when someone says something foolish but well-intended, and you get this kind of onslaught which seems more inclined to tell them that they're wrong and worthless than to actually help them to understand better. I'm never sure how much that helps, or whether people feel under attack and just stop listening.

[Backpacker]

Just to add my tuppence worth, there have been a few threads where the advice could be best described as a bit condescending.

It's possibly not the intention but some come across as a bit elitist or "lock at me I've done X, Y & Z AND would never contemplate that"

My advice will always be the same, judge it on the day, if you feel confident, bash on, if not, retreat and come back another day, the hill isn't going anywhere.

[cmarcol]

I don't think the responsibility in a potentially dangerous situation lies entirely with the person giving advice. I regularly ask people for route advice in order to better my knowledge of a route before I tackle it and have had some rather questionable advice from "more experienced" walkers but at the end of the day it's my decision which advice I take over my own judgement (and vice versa) and I am responsible for my own safety. Even the people I walk with on a regular basis don't know my limits as well as I do so their advice has to be weighed up. As Backpacker says even with sound advice all you can do is judge it yourself when you're there and if you're not happy don't do it. Advice is subjective and anyone asking for it should know that.

Give me a walk in the cairngorms and I'll probably come in at 20% under naismith , on the west coast 20% over as I'm fast over land rover tracks and a slow climber.

Exactly the same. I'm a slow climber but I'm also a wimp so maybe 30% over when there's a scary drop!

[Cairngormwanderer]

My advice will always be the same, judge it on the day, if you feel confident, bash on, if not, retreat and come back another day, the hill isn't going anywhere.

But then maybe you feel confident because you are ignorant/inexperienced. And, quite separately, maybe (as very often happens) by the time you realise you should retreat, it's too late to retreat.

On the learn-to-walk-before-you-try-to-run principle, perhaps people should adopt a progressive approach to hill walking rather than deciding (as happens) they want to do the Aonach Eagach as one of their first hills.

I don't think many people are intending to be condescending in their advice either: unless you know someone's level of experience it can be difficult to know whether you're teaching your granny to suck eggs or taking as read some vital info which the poster doesn't actually know.

[Border Reiver]

Quite a number of times I read advice given to relatively inexperienced people and I think..."I wouldn't do that", but every now and then I see some advice given which is alarmingly bad and then I feel the need to at least post my thoughts on possible pitfalls and hope that they are considered.
What I've noticed in following some threads, is that after a relatively inexperienced person has been given advice or thoughts (ranging from excellent to dangerous) by a number of posters, the O.P. appears to favour the least sensible advice because that's the route they really want to do and it's not good advice they want, but someone to confirm that their own plans are feasible.
The problem for most "novices" is that they don't really know who is giving the best advice and I'm guessing that the most experienced folk on here are least likely to comment.
My friend (who has never climbed anything in snow before) and I were across in the Lake District last week and after reaching an easy summit in soft snow, I could see that continuing to our planned destination would be foolish as the narrowish ridge we had to ascend and then descend was snow plastered and could be icy and neither of us had ice axe or crampons. As he had no experience I suggested that we would return to the car by another easy route. My friend wasn't happy, pointing out to me that others we met had come down the same ridge without the ice axes and crampons that I would have wanted. Fortunately, we were chatting to a novice group who were led by a mountain guide and he also confirmed that he wouldn't be taking his group any further. This settled my friend's mind that we were doing the right thing, but it shows that if anyone is inexperienced, then any random person could persuade them of the feasibility of a route.

[Kevin29035]

My friend (who has never climbed anything in snow before) and I were across in the Lake District last week and after reaching an easy summit in soft snow, I could see that continuing to our planned destination would be foolish as the narrowish ridge we had to ascend and then descend was snow plastered and could be icy and neither of us had ice axe or crampons. As he had no experience I suggested that we would return to the car by another easy route. My friend wasn't happy, pointing out to me that others we met had come down the same ridge without the ice axes and crampons that I would have wanted. Fortunately, we were chatting to a novice group who were led by a mountain guide and he also confirmed that he wouldn't be taking his group any further. This settled my friend's mind that we were doing the right thing, but it shows that if anyone is inexperienced, then any random person could persuade them of the feasibility of a route.

Good story. I can relate to this, having been a bit more cautious than less experienced friends in the past.

[Giant Stoneater]

The thing is there are no hard and fast rules over info/advice about which is good or bad, one has just got to read the posts and come to their own conclusion.
Do we want Trip Reports without words, mind you some of the photos are just as scary.

[mgmt!]

What really upsets me - far more than bad advice - are the times when someone says something foolish but well-intended, and you get this kind of onslaught which seems more inclined to tell them that they're wrong and worthless than to actually help them to understand better. I'm never sure how much that helps, or whether people feel under attack and just stop listening.

ive said there was no malice in the advice, my irk is why someone by their own admission hasnt even worn crampons on a hill, sees fit to give someone advice on a winter walk ?
so what would you do to " make them understand better ", id be interested to hear your views ?

[quote="cmarcol"]I don't think the responsibility in a potentially dangerous situation lies entirely with the person giving advice."

i agree, but surely if a person is seeking advice then he or she thinks they need it, the person giving the advice should be competent enough ( and i no there is an issue with peoples own perception of their abilities ) to give that advice ? not someone just having a go (and giving wrong advice ) in order to wrack up more posts ? i might be wrong but im sure you cant swap posts for prizes ?

[Moriarty]

I'd observe that people new to hill-walking often go through a phase of trepidation, followed (in some people) by a rapidly burgeoning (over) confidence.

They're probably the most knowledgeable person they know about hillwalking/mountaineering as there may be no-one in their work or family that has ever climbed a hill.

Put these people on social media, especially on social media which is cultivating an entirely friendly, never critical environment, and such people will feel emboldened to give enthusiastic advice.

If they were down the pub with the rest of the mountaineering club they'd get a cold stare and get cut off at the knees by experienced members, but they're online in a friendly place.

Personally I wouldn't venture advice to someone I hadn't met and often wince at well-meaning, rather poor quality statements seen on social media.