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Campervans

Re: Campervans

Postby simon-b » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:40 am

DavidShepherd wrote:
simon-b wrote:
DavidShepherd wrote:I'd love a campervan to be honest. But I do mean a smaller Volkswagen or converted similar size thing. Would make life so much easier for getting away!

That being said, yeah they get annoying, but you know what, maybe its more about teaching yourself not to get annoyed about it. Things change and the increased numbers are more than likely here to stay. You're in for serious disappointment if you think the other party will sort themselves out. Better all round to just not let it affect you while you're on the road etc.

(Easier said than done but there you go!)


Other drivers are not annoying for simply exercising their right to be there, the same as all of us are exercising our rights when driving in the country, and ourselves adding the amount of traffic on the roads. But what is annoying and frustrating is when drivers disregard the highway code's instruction to make proper progress for traffic conditions, and ignore road signs that say to allow overtaking and not impede traffic behind. I have sympathy for lorry drivers etc. who can't be stopping in every layby, but some leisure drivers never pull over.

They're only increasing and not going away? Maybe a good jet stream summer like 2007, with weeks of wash out deluges over the Highlands, Lakes and Snowdonia will send all the staycation boomers scurrying for their passports again.

Those of us who really love the hills love them in all types of weather! Which I'm sure would in your VW camper if you got one, David, nothing wrong with that!


Not disagreeing with you on any of these points (Well maybe except that good jet stream summer, but if that happens I'm more than happy to be quoted!) What I was trying to say was that its better to try and help yourself not get annoyed and frustrated by it, because its unlikely others will change and you'll have a better time of it not letting it get to you.
This is what 10 years of commuting between Ayrshire and Glasgow 5 days a week up the M77 has taught me :)


I can understand that, I had years of commuting in urban Northern England. At least in London they have a good integrated public transport system, we don't have that here, depite a high population density. So I can sympathise with your commuting experience.

Maybe you don't fancy a jet stream summer for Scotland, fair enough, but 30 deg C plus England and Wales could really do with one right now!
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Re: Campervans

Postby JWCW2014 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:57 am

I think the lack of facilities for campervans raised in this thread is interesting - most other places in Western Europe have infrastructure to encourage responsible campervanning (if I may create a word).

We don’t own one (but would love a smallish one…post-covid prices have put that idea on ice so!) but having been away this year to the NW and other parts of the country there is a real lack of facilities.

That said most campervans I’ve been ‘stuck’ behind have been polite enough to pull over in reasonable time. A few notable and very expletive laden exceptions have occurred of course.
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Re: Campervans

Postby AyrshireAlps » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:39 am

Nail on head, agreed.

We can either just keep moaning about stuff like this, or we do something about it. I've just spent 10 days driving in Netherlands, Belgium and France, the Aires are fantastic, and are plentiful. Our infrastructure, even on motorways, is awful, it's another reason post wrexit that European lorry drivers are in no rush to get back here, not even enough facilities for them, never mind 'leisure users'.
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Re: Campervans

Postby Glengavel » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:25 am

AyrshireAlps wrote:Nail on head, agreed.

We can either just keep moaning about stuff like this, or we do something about it. I've just spent 10 days driving in Netherlands, Belgium and France, the Aires are fantastic, and are plentiful. Our infrastructure, even on motorways, is awful, it's another reason post wrexit that European lorry drivers are in no rush to get back here, not even enough facilities for them, never mind 'leisure users'.


I stopped off at Tebay southbound and the caravan parking section was appalling.
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Re: Campervans

Postby Tringa » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:31 am

I agree the lack of facilities in some(perhaps) many areas is a problem when the number visiting those areas has increased dramatically in the last couple of year.

An integrated infrastructure in needed. A particularly loopy decision of Highland Council was to close(or no longer maintain) some public toilets in rural areas at the same time as supporting the NC500,

Having Aires would help but there would be a need for education of some motorhome/campervan owners/users. Aires are temporary stopover and NOT campsites and I think without education and a change in attitude from some in motorhome/campervans, aires would not work.

Unfortunately, there are some(admittedly few) who believe it is their right to do whatever they want, wherever and whenever.

Dave

https://alanrogers.com/blog/introduction-to-motorhome-aires
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Re: Campervans

Postby Chris Henshall » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:42 am

Couple of observations:
1. Many refer to these road clotters as "wobbleboxes" - seems reasonably appropriate.
2. Comments here about facilities at motorway service stations in the UK ring true. Are people aware that (poorly signed at the entrance to most service station car parks) you can be fined (sorry, incur an additional parking charge) of up to £90 from an organisation like Parking Eye if you stay in these "rest areas" for over two hours? I reckon that's a bit of an incentive either to stay on the road when, say, driving north overnight and feeling tired or to pull off and park up on some other highway if you find yourself needing a sleep. (If I sound bitter about this, it's because I am.)
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Re: Campervans

Postby simon-b » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:41 pm

Chris Henshall wrote:Couple of observations:
1. Many refer to these road clotters as "wobbleboxes" - seems reasonably appropriate.
2. Comments here about facilities at motorway service stations in the UK ring true. Are people aware that (poorly signed at the entrance to most service station car parks) you can be fined (sorry, incur an additional parking charge) of up to £90 from an organisation like Parking Eye if you stay in these "rest areas" for over two hours? I reckon that's a bit of an incentive either to stay on the road when, say, driving north overnight and feeling tired or to pull off and park up on some other highway if you find yourself needing a sleep. (If I sound bitter about this, it's because I am.)

I can see both sides to your point about charging for parking over 2 hours at service stations. Some places like Scotch Corner can get full to bursting, and unlimited time could cause the car park to be completely full when other drivers arriving really need the rest.
But the points you make are true too, plus it discourages car sharing. Eg. I live in West Yorkshire and have a friend from Bristol who I've walked with. If parking at Southwaite Services near Carlisle wasn't time restricted, we could meet there and leave one car, reducing our carbon footprints en route to Scotland (although with the current fuel prices the 'fine' might pay for itself. But if that starts happening those charges might start escalating!)
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Re: Campervans

Postby Chris Henshall » Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:21 pm

simon-b wrote:I can see both sides to your point about charging for parking over 2 hours at service stations. Some places like Scotch Corner can get full to bursting, and unlimited time could cause the car park to be completely full when other drivers arriving really need the rest.
But the points you make are true too, plus it discourages car sharing. Eg. I live in West Yorkshire and have a friend from Bristol who I've walked with. If parking at Southwaite Services near Carlisle wasn't time restricted, we could meet there and leave one car, reducing our carbon footprints en route to Scotland (although with the current fuel prices the 'fine' might pay for itself. But if that starts happening those charges might start escalating!)

Yes, there are certainly two sides to this:
Pros:
- It deters people from clogging up car parks at busy times.
- It probably deters semi-permanent stays by, for example, members of the travelling community.
- It makes large profits for parasitical parking companies. (Is this a pro?)
Cons:
- It encourages people to keep driving when they are tired and need to sleep.
- If a driver needs a lengthy break, it encourages him or her to park up at an alternative (and possibly antisocial) location on another highway.
- It discourages the long term parking necessary for car sharing.
- It results in penalty charges for individual motorists which are wildly disproportionate to, say, the act of having three hours sleep between 2.00. and 5.00.am..
Personally, I wouldn't mind it so much if the regulations were clearly signed with the excess charges clearly displayed. As the photo below shows, though, this is not the case with the relevant sign here being one of eleven (if you count the no entry sign just visible behind and left of the main board on the right, two rather distant level crossing signs and another main board just visible beyond the car roof) spattering the entrance to this service station and displaying no charges. I find it ironic that the service station titles itself "Welcome Break"; perhaps "Welcome Break Providing It's Under Two Hours" might be more appropriate?
Service Station Parking.png
Surely it would be more proportionate for a service station to employ a parking warden at busy times who could wake up either malingering or sleeping motorists and advise them to get back on the road? It would certainly have made my decision to grab three hours kip in a service station on my way to climb some hills last summer much less expensive...
(Not sure how we got here from wobbleboxes!)
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Re: Campervans

Postby Sunset tripper » Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:17 pm

Chris Henshall wrote:Couple of observations:
1. Many refer to these road clotters as "wobbleboxes" - seems reasonably appropriate.
2. Comments here about facilities at motorway service stations in the UK ring true. Are people aware that (poorly signed at the entrance to most service station car parks) you can be fined (sorry, incur an additional parking charge) of up to £90 from an organisation like Parking Eye if you stay in these "rest areas" for over two hours? I reckon that's a bit of an incentive either to stay on the road when, say, driving north overnight and feeling tired or to pull off and park up on some other highway if you find yourself needing a sleep. (If I sound bitter about this, it's because I am.)


Campervans to rip off parking - it had to happen. :lol:
Some say it's my specialised subject - :lol:

I dont get it but quite a few support paying for parking and charges even on these forums. Even if it means the hassle of being left with the dilemma of not having the right change and having to turn back or the dilemma of leaving your car with no option to pay for an overnighter.

It's just the British way, ripping each other off is perfectly acceptable in our culture. Don't expect anything for nothing and certainly don't do anything for nothing.

The highlands are not as bad for this just yet but it is creeping in unfortunately.
For hill walking, car parks are still generally free in the Highlands compared to e.g the lakes.
Many highland folk still, will stop and give a stranger a lift for no reward or recognition despite the warnings and possible dangers. This doesn't make them better people, it's just a mindset which is difficult to change I think.

Good news that the vast majority of no overnight parking signs in the highlands have been proven to be illegal and removed. 8)

But on the downside It's sad that some people are now choosing not to visit Arrochar and the hills there purely because of the parking issues. Some because of the extra financial burden and the risk of a fine if you make a mistake.
Shame on Argll Council! :crazy:
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Re: Campervans

Postby al78 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:01 pm

Sunset tripper wrote:
Chris Henshall wrote:Couple of observations:
1. Many refer to these road clotters as "wobbleboxes" - seems reasonably appropriate.
2. Comments here about facilities at motorway service stations in the UK ring true. Are people aware that (poorly signed at the entrance to most service station car parks) you can be fined (sorry, incur an additional parking charge) of up to £90 from an organisation like Parking Eye if you stay in these "rest areas" for over two hours? I reckon that's a bit of an incentive either to stay on the road when, say, driving north overnight and feeling tired or to pull off and park up on some other highway if you find yourself needing a sleep. (If I sound bitter about this, it's because I am.)


Campervans to rip off parking - it had to happen. :lol:
Some say it's my specialised subject - :lol:

I dont get it but quite a few support paying for parking and charges even on these forums. Even if it means the hassle of being left with the dilemma of not having the right change and having to turn back or the dilemma of leaving your car with no option to pay for an overnighter.


Given it costs money to provide car parks and maintain them, why should they be provided for free? The pay machines should be able to accept cards which eliminates the problem of not having the right change.

As for people needing more than two hours to rest, if you know that is likely, would it not be better to break the journey with an overnight stop? Might not always be possible but if going on holiday feasible most of the time I imagine. This is what I did in both directions when I drove from Horsham to Braemar in June.

The problem with having no restrictions on service station parking is people will take liberties and use it inappropriately, for example to save money on workplace related parking, which would result in some services getting rammed full preventing drivers from using them for what they are intended to be used for. I have encountered service stations where it has been very difficult to find a parking space and I've had to join a long queue just to get into the car park.
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Re: Campervans

Postby Sunset tripper » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:32 pm

Like I said Al - it's a mindset. Get nothing for free and do nothing for someone else for free.

I disagree that people should be priced out of stuff like enjoying the great outdoors. :?

The service station stuff is a different issue but equally unpalatable. :(
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Re: Campervans

Postby Chris Henshall » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:43 pm

al78 wrote:Given it costs money to provide car parks and maintain them, why should they be provided for free? The pay machines should be able to accept cards which eliminates the problem of not having the right change.

As for people needing more than two hours to rest, if you know that is likely, would it not be better to break the journey with an overnight stop? Might not always be possible but if going on holiday feasible most of the time I imagine. This is what I did in both directions when I drove from Horsham to Braemar in June.

The problem with having no restrictions on service station parking is people will take liberties and use it inappropriately, for example to save money on workplace related parking, which would result in some services getting rammed full preventing drivers from using them for what they are intended to be used for. I have encountered service stations where it has been very difficult to find a parking space and I've had to join a long queue just to get into the car park.

Fair points here but I think that the contrary arguments are worth making. They are, fundamentally, this:
- The companies which provide services in these places are very profitable and certainly don't need the additional income from ramping up parking charges to such wildly disproportionate levels in order to provide and maintain car parks. Indeed, their basic income stream depends on the existence of well-maintained car parks.
- Breaking the journey with an overnight stop, while sometimes possible, is not always so for someone on the road suddenly overtaken by tiredness and I'd argue that it should always be possible for a tired motorist to stop and have a sleep for a few hours in a facility which styles itself as a service station, especially a "Welcome Break" service station!
- As to overcrowding, my previous post suggests that employing the equivalent of a benign traffic warden would be a more reasonable way forward. This might not be a classic capitalistic solution (as it would produce less revenue) but, call me a wanky old socialist, I think there's a case to be made for human decency, etc.
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Re: Campervans

Postby ChrisButch » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:55 pm

The discussion doesn't seem to recognise the external costs, far exceeding the internal costs, of car parks amid wild land. The tragedy of the commons in full play here, I'm afraid.
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Re: Campervans

Postby CharlesT » Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:26 pm

Oh dear! I've always fancied a small campervan, but reading the above it seems it would make me even more of a pariah than did my chosen profession. ☹
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Re: Campervans

Postby JWCW2014 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:34 pm

CharlesT wrote:Oh dear! I've always fancied a small campervan, but reading the above it seems it would make me even more of a pariah than did my chosen profession. ☹


Director of a private car parking company?
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