Should I have intervened?

[DomBoyd]

Thanks folks, just to clarify, I should have said “navigational right”, I am a firm believer in our Scottish access rights. Also, judging by the comments made at the time, and of the situation, my assumption was that a map, compass and knowledge of how to use them were not present. But of course I may have been wrong!

[Sgurr]

Last Sunday I walked along the cliff top path and saw two fishermen on a rock with no visible means of getting back to shore. Talked about it a bit to a couple and they said they THOUGHT there was an old sewage pipe running out to the rocks behind them from another direction and there was still a cement base which you could scarcely see. Still worried and thought about phoning the coast guard, but there were so many people who had seen them and were walking past unperturbed that I didn't. When I got to the harbour I asked one of the local fishermen if the tide was coming up our down. Down apparently, so they could get back to shore eventually. "If it's those fishermen you're worried about, you're not the first that's asked me."

Moral of that story is (a) divided responsibility. If I had been the only person there, I'm fairly sure I would have phoned the coastguard (and looked pretty foolish). If you had been the only person there, you might have given your little lecture, which may or may not have been received with good grace.
(b) Although people look to be in danger, they aren't necessarily.]
Put it on the local face book page, and one guy said he had had a few scares fishing out there..

[kenny lochaber]

"Should anyone intervene"= Common sense- if you consider someone is hopelessly lost and in trouble -whether they ask for help or not- then a polite intervention would do no harm and would probably be welcome....otherwise let them experience their day- my own navigational errors have served me well in not repeating them- should never stop anyone's sense of adventure unless they are risking danger beyond what they can handle or manage to overcome.It takes time to become competent in the hills/mountains- and everyone must start somewhere- and no one ever stops learning it all.

[StevieC]

All fair points, thanks for replies. Perhaps the crowded summit after the morning of solitude affected my tolerance levels!

You do realise you were part of the crowd?

[DomBoyd]

All fair points, thanks for replies. Perhaps the crowded summit after the morning of solitude affected my tolerance levels!

You do realise you were part of the crowd?

Yes, but if I hadn’t visited then I wouldn’t have been part of it!

[Caberfeidh]

MacDui is a big broad heap of rocks at the summit, no wonder he asked. I once struggled up a vast peak on Arran, and asked the folk at the top; "Is this the summit of Goatfell?" I nearly collapsed when they replied, "Oh no, that's it away up there...", pointing to a distant and far more lofty peak. If they had grumpily demanded to know if I had any "right" to be there I would have kicked them in the couloirs....

Whon said anything about questioning rights? The question was about whether someone should be on a hill in they cloud if they lack sufficient experience and/or equipment to be able to locate the summit and make their own way up without following someone else, not questioning his (legal) right to be on the hill. I find it very tiresome when people play the human rights card when someone questions the responsibility of an action/choice as though rights mean throwing away any requirement to think, it is so American, and the less of that we have to deal with the better. Remember, just because you have a right to do something, doesn't mean you should.

Errr... he did?

I really don't like to get into a discussion about who has and has not the right to be in the hills but I found myself wondering if I should have posed that question to him.

[rockhopper]

FWIW I don't tend to offer any guidance or advice unless someone specifically asks me. Even then I'd stick to facts as I won't know anything about the other person and they won't know anything about me; it can be dangerous to make assumptions. After all, no-one is infallible and I may also not be right.

[prog99]

FWIW I don't tend to offer any guidance or advice unless someone specifically asks me. Even then I'd stick to facts as I won't know anything about the other person and they won't know anything about me; it can be dangerous to make assumptions. After all, no-one is infallible and I may also not be right.

Yes and be prepared to be ignored if you do offer the correct advice.
A few years ago on a stormy day in June we were approached at Derry Lodge by two walkers who pretty much thrust the 1:25k map of the area towards us and demanded to know how to get up Ben Macdui.
I was pretty blunt and advised them to go home.For those who don't know the area that approach involves quite a bit more distance and navigational competence than the ski centre way
Next day on the news, two walkers rescued lost in the cairngorms.

[Booga]

This reminds me of a chap who came into an outdoor store I once worked in, he wanted a map as he was planning on leading a party of 10 newcomers to hillwalking up a mountain that weekend.
When I got out an OS map and handed it to him he replied "No, I don't want a map with all that other stuff on it. Just one with the footpaths." Upon questioning him further it seemed he was expecting a blank piece of paper with just footpaths and the summit marked with no other features, like a treasure map in a childrens book. He didn't want to buy an OS map or a compass and never replied to my gentle questioning on wether he already had one or knew how to use it, I suggested it would be good for him to carry these items and perhaps give his party a demonstration of map reading along the way, hoping that he would take the hint.
There were a few other things he said that seemed to indicate he liked to think he was a born leader but didn't really have a clue what he was doing. He left without buying anything and all I could do was hope he and his party's weekend went without incident.

[aniolare]

I tend to think there's no such thing as a dumb question, or at least there shouldn't be.

Whether or not it's wise for someone with little navigational experience to be up there, the fact is that they are there, so when speaking to people on the hill it's probably best to stick to information that's helpful to them. Judgement or "stronger" words of advice can wait until they're safely back on the ground, if necessary at all.

If you criticise anyone on the hill then they'll close up and probably not ask for help if they need it. Pride and fear of looking stupid is a very real thing*. I tend to find the best way to help people is just to open up and offer information, show them maps (photos of maps are helpful sometimes) and answer questions. Usually they'll figure out that they're out of their depth themselves.

A couple of times I've offered to bring lost walkers down with me, which offers some time to gently suggest that trainers, jeans and no waterproofs or maps maybe wasn't the best idea for Scotland in autumn


*Amusingly in aviation, pilots that are unsure of their location are encouraged to request a "training fix" from the RAF Distress and Diversion Cell to establish their position. It's a judgement free way to double check your location without having to admit that you're lost or escalating the situation. It stops pride (something pilots suffer from rather a lot of) from becoming a killer....

[DomBoyd]

Excellent points, thanks. I’m guessing we’re from a similar background and recognise the doctrine, Although I fixed rather than flew! I tend to agree that there’s no such thing as a stupid question, but it does leave me frustrated that people still ignore the sage advice - map, compass and ability to use them.

[Kinshusrst Kid]

Whether or not it's wise for someone with little navigational experience to be up there, the fact is that they are there,

.

The original poster, nor you and I know what navigational experience the unknown guy on the summit of Macdui had. Or whether he had map, compass or GPS device.

The interpretation by the original poster of his eavesdropping does not tell us that.

Is the unknown guy on the summit being wronged?

[aniolare]

Excellent points, thanks. I’m guessing we’re from a similar background and recognise the doctrine, Although I fixed rather than flew! .

I used to fly gliders so my aviation background isn't the most extensive. Still, there are a lot of ideas from aviation that seem quite transferrable to the hills.

Whether or not it's wise for someone with little navigational experience to be up there, the fact is that they are there,

.

The original poster, nor you and I know what navigational experience the unknown guy on the summit of Macdui had. Or whether he had map, compass or GPS device.

The interpretation by the original poster of his eavesdropping does not tell us that.

Is the unknown guy on the summit being wronged?

Assuming good faith, I imagine the original poster had their reasons for thinking that. Since they acknowledge that their first thought was judgemental and they never said anything, I can't see anyone being wronged here.

I'm a trans woman, I'm used to people wrongly assuming I don't know what I'm doing (it happens A LOT), so I know how frustrating that can be. But also if someone is asking if they're at the summit and say that they've got there by following someone, it's not a bad thing to at least be aware of their situation. If someone had told me that I'd be wondering whether to intervene and offer help too.

[Luke88]

All fair points, thanks for replies. Perhaps the crowded summit after the morning of solitude affected my tolerance levels!

You do realise you were part of the crowd?

Indeed there's nothing as self righteous as a Scottish hillwalker

[DomBoyd]

All fair points, thanks for replies. Perhaps the crowded summit after the morning of solitude affected my tolerance levels!

You do realise you were part of the crowd?

Indeed there's nothing as self righteous as a Scottish hillwalker

Call it what you like, but I’ll take sitting on my own on a hillside over sharing a summit with out of control barking dogs and people yelling at the tops of their voices any day.