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Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby Marty_JG » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:36 pm

Derbyshire police once again acting psychopathically. Very, very glad BoJo's poorly worded "rules" do not apply in Scotland.
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Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby Spade » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:47 pm

Marty_JG wrote:Derbyshire police once again acting psychopathically. Very, very glad BoJo's poorly worded "rules" do not apply in Scotland.




Don't think the 2 walkers in Glencoe will feel encouraged by wee Nicolas blurry "rules" either
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Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby Kinshusrst Kid » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:55 pm

I felt the two guys in Glencoe were unlucky. Marginally out of a defined area after an unfortunate accident.But the police decided an offence was committed.

I feel the two young ladies from Ashby-de-la-zouche have been the victim of over enthusiastic ( bloody minded ) policing.
The entrance to the reservoir in question is six miles from the centre of Ashby I find it of note that the police were at a car park on private property three quarters of a mile from the entrance. Why were they not at the entrance, were they waiting to entrap people? It would seem so as they are doing the same at Calke Abbey nearby and at other similar places in South Derbyshire where outdoor exercise can legally be taken.

I am under the impression that police were supposed to engage with the public in these circumstances. South Derbyshire police seem to interpret "engage" as "issue a fixed penalty notice". They also interpret a ten minute drive as not being local There has been some discussion of this latter point in local East Midlands media.

The South Derbyshire police have been asked how far people could travel for exercise. Their response is to tell people go to the GOV.UK website where, of course, it only says local. People are trying to get a sensible answer from the police on this but end up in Catch22. Our public servants fail us yet again.

The young ladies thought they were going local but the heavy hand of "the law" thought otherwise. The true answer can be found if the ladies refuse to pay the fixed penalty and go to court. Perhaps there's a wealthy lady fund manager out there who might wish to bankroll them.
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Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby Marty_JG » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:35 pm

Spade wrote:Don't think the 2 walkers in Glencoe will feel encouraged by wee Nicolas blurry "rules" either


That two law-breaking ill-prepared risk-taking numpties claim not to understand what "five" and "miles" mean does not make the law blurry. The law is not blurry, the law is crystal clear.
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Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby jupe1407 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:09 am

Spade wrote:Don't think the 2 walkers in Glencoe will feel encouraged by wee Nicolas blurry "rules" either


Q: Did they drive more than 5 miles from their own local authority boundary to start the walk?
A: Yes.

Not blurry. Glad to be of assistance.
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Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby davekeiller » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:36 am

It seems to me that the two cases are quite different.
In Scotland, the legislation says that you're allowed to drive up to 5 miles outside of your local authority area. Two people drove more than 5 miles outside their local authority, had an unfortunate accident, got caught and were fined. They were a bit unfortunate to get caught, but they broke the law and were punished. To be fair, the police probably made an example of them to try and deter others, but ultimately all they did was enforce the law.

In the Derbyshire case, the law seems to be ambiguous. Two people did what most people would regard as being a sensible and legal thing to do in the circumstances by driving a short distance to an area where they had a reasonable expectation of being able to go for a walk in solitude, without meeting anyone else and with essentially no chance of catching or transmitting Covid. It's true that they could have gone for a walk from their respective front doors, but this would have required walking in a busy populated area where the infection risk would be higher. They were met by police who appear to have been waiting for people to go for a walk and given a fixed penalty notice when it is unclear whether a crime was actually committed, and a polite conversation asking them to move on would have been more appropriate. One suspects that were the people involved to contest the fixed penalty notice then any sensible magistrate would overturn the ticket and tell the officer(s) involved to use some common sense next time.
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Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby Tringa » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:08 pm

Agree. As the Government have failed again to make this mandatory and simple I think the police should have had a word with the two ladies about exercise in future.

The sections in this - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home#exercising - on exercise and travel use "should" rather than "must".

I think it would have been far better, given all of England is effectively in the same tier, to say something on the lines of " .. you must not travel more than 5 miles to take exercise". The 5 miles could be defined as either in a straight line or by road.

It would then put the onus on each person make sure their travel was in line with the law.

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Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby al78 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:46 pm

Tringa wrote:Agree. As the Government have failed again to make this mandatory and simple I think the police should have had a word with the two ladies about exercise in future.

The sections in this - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home#exercising - on exercise and travel use "should" rather than "must".

I think it would have been far better, given all of England is effectively in the same tier, to say something on the lines of " .. you must not travel more than 5 miles to take exercise". The 5 miles could be defined as either in a straight line or by road.

It would then put the onus on each person make sure their travel was in line with the law.

Dave


That probably would be easier for individuals to obey, but it would disadvantage people who live in dense urban areas more than five miles from countryside/open space. I'm lucky that I can cycle into countryside within a few minutes, others are not so fortunate, and those who do live in or very near city centres may be living in poorer/deprived areas who would mentally most benefit from getting out of the city and getting some quality exercise.

The rules as they stand seem somewhat inconsistent in some situations regarding genuine risk. I am allowed to cycle from my front door to the South Downs and back, yet I'm not allowed to drive to the South Downs and go on a short walk. Is the latter really more COVID risky than the former? I probably could cycle 10 miles to Warninglid and do one of my favourite 5 mile circular walks, but can't drive there and do the same walk. That is the problem with blanket rules, they can't cover every theoretically possible scenario and be logically consistent with them all.
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Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby Kinshusrst Kid » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:16 pm

Looks like the police in South Derbyshire are having to review their approach and the penalty notices they have issued.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55594244
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Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby Sunset tripper » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:19 pm

The scottish government was asked yesterday what the track and trace was identifying as the major cause of the spread.
They answered, in house visits - essential and illegal, shops, hospitals, care homes, places of worship etc, etc, No mention of travel for outdoor leisure at all. Considering travel for hillwalking can be done solo it is probably as close to the ideal exercise you can get.
The 5 mile from your house makes no sense, cramming everyone into the same area like they did at Portobello beach and thousands of city streets and parks previously.
The Derbyshire police fiasco was highlighted on the main BBC news last night and they are now back tracking big time, going to reassess the fines handed out. The biggest risk anyone had of catching Covid was the unnecessary contact with the police who are super spreaders.
I think now, Derbyshire police have once again been told to wind their kneck in. Its just a bit sad that they have to be shamed on national TV before they realise what they are doing is unacceptable. :?
I guess it's a learning curve for them like the rest of us. :D
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Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby Sunset tripper » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:28 pm

Tringa wrote:
I think it would have been far better, given all of England is effectively in the same tier, to say something on the lines of " .. you must not travel more than 5 miles to take exercise". The 5 miles could be defined as either in a straight line or by road.



Dave


The Derbyshire police have now been told what they are doing is wrong and the tail is firmly between their legs. A 5 mile from your home restriction is punitive and it has been proven to be of no benefit. Cramming everyone into the same area bored out of their minds is only going to increase the spread not curtail it.
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Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby Border Reiver » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:43 pm

Here's some wording from the advice given on the NHS Test and Trace app.
"You may "exercise with your household (or support bubble) or one other person, this should be limited to once per day and you should not travel outside your local area".

Outdoor exercise. "This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your area to do so."

Their definition of local. "If you need to travel you should stay local - meaning avoiding travelling outside of your village, town or part of the city where you live".

I've read though a lot of this advice / law/ rules and there are too many apparent contradictions and uncertainties to be absolutely sure of anything.
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Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby Giant Stoneater » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:25 pm

Sunset tripper wrote:The scottish government was asked yesterday what the track and trace was identifying as the major cause of the spread.
They answered, in house visits - essential and illegal, shops, hospitals, care homes, places of worship etc, etc, No mention of travel for outdoor leisure at all. Considering travel for hillwalking can be done solo it is probably as close to the ideal exercise you can get.
The 5 mile from your house makes no sense, cramming everyone into the same area like they did at Portobello beach and thousands of city streets and parks previously.
The Derbyshire police fiasco was highlighted on the main BBC news last night and they are now back tracking big time, going to reassess the fines handed out. The biggest risk anyone had of catching Covid was the unnecessary contact with the police who are super spreaders.
I think now, Derbyshire police have once again been told to wind their kneck in. Its just a bit sad that they have to be shamed on national TV before they realise what they are doing is unacceptable. :?
I guess it's a learning curve for them like the rest of us. :D


During the week it was reported that the Scottish Government was monitoring the the amount of travel that was happening and might bring in tougher travel restrictions.

Without knowing the actual facts of the Derbyshire incident,did the police try to reason, maybe they were pushed to the limit of their powers and left with no option but to fine them, some people will not take no for a answer.
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Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby Sunset tripper » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:04 pm

Giant Stoneater wrote:
During the week it was reported that the Scottish Government was monitoring the the amount of travel that was happening and might bring in tougher travel restrictions.

Without knowing the actual facts of the Derbyshire incident,did the police try to reason, maybe they were pushed to the limit of their powers and left with no option but to fine them, some people will not take no for a answer.


If the figures don't improve with the current restrictions the government may well try and go further, where you need to fill in a form to leave your house and leisure and exercise may well be banned, similar to what it was like in France at the beginning where cycling was also banned. I'm not sure how much difference that would make though.
If figures improve and with outdoor leisure so beneficial and already proven to be negligible in the spread it would look a foolish move.

The Derbyshire incident the police went out of their way to dish out fixed penalties, Their idea of engaging and explaining the rules was to give out fines. Luckily the incidents got big publicity and they have been severely chastised by their superiors who don't want the police being portrayed in this way.
Not to mention it was the police who didn't understand the law not the people they were fining.

If the cops cant keep up with it what chance for the rest of us? :D
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Re: Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

Postby Kinshusrst Kid » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:30 pm

Giant Stoneater wrote:Without knowing the actual facts of the Derbyshire incident,did the police try to reason, maybe they were pushed to the limit of their powers and left with no option but to fine them, some people will not take no for a answer.


At first I was of the same opinion. I don't live in the area but was initially curious as to how far these women had travelled. I the noticed lots of local media posts about police activity in the area. Not just about the two women and the reservoir. A photo of one place showed at least seven police at the entrance to an abbey where exercise is legally permitted. It would appear that they were fining people £200 even though they were legally within their rights. One couple said oh we'll go away then (or words to that effect). The police said its too late and issued the penalty. There have been many complaints.

The police are supposed to engage with the public but this bunch seem to have not been doing that and have been advised by the chief constables NPCC that the police in South Derbyshire were wrong in their approach. They are having to review all the fixed penalty notices that they have issued. They had their knuckles rapped about over aggressive actions in the first lockdown.

In similar circumstances I would not have taken no for an answer when I was acting legally and the police were being, at best, overzealous. People should be given penalties for failing to comply with requirements designed to restrict Covid, which is spreading at an ever alarming rate. We must all follow the appropriate guidelines, including the police.

As an aside two uniformed policewomen were strolling around a supermarket local (yes very local) to me. One wearing no mask and both ignoring other shoppers (including me) with regard to social distancing as they went about buying their sandwiches and drinks. Obviously a very small and unrepresentative minority.
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