Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

[al78]

The walkers on Creag Meagaidh were definitely within the letter of the law but not within the spirit.

The law is clear but unfortunately ridiculous.

As long as the encouragement to stay local is guidance there will be people who abuse it.

Dave

Perhaps that is one reason we topped the global league table in fatality rates, because too many people stubbornly won't obey rules because they won't look at anything beyond their own selfish interests.

There are several plausible reasons why the UK has been one of the worst affected by this pandemic, but I can't help thinking the population being more stubborn and disobediant could be one factor. I'm not talking about someone driving 50 miles to climb a hill, I'm talking generally e.g. the mass gatherings in blatant breach of the rules.

[Caberfeidh]

I first thought they meant Health Authority boundaries, so people didn't put pressure on another Health Authority and maybe spread it to a hospital and thus infect a whole other area. But no, politicians only think of themselves, so they impose Local Council Authority boundaries on us. That is weird and meaningless, unless of course it is an effort to make money from this disaster. What kind of politicians would do a thing like that? All of them...
So now we have thousands of people tramping around parks in towns and cities, breathing each other's exhaled breath, when just outside the boundaries we have miles of open land, coast and hills, where we could avoid each other like the pla... sorry...

[Sunset tripper]

The walkers on Creag Meagaidh were definitely within the letter of the law but not within the spirit.

The law is clear but unfortunately ridiculous.

As long as the encouragement to stay local is guidance there will be people who abuse it.

Dave

I'm not sure I agree with that Tringa. Surely the spirit of the law is to avoid covid transmission, so the only way they broke the spirit of the law is by getting into trouble and calling out MRT. I think travelling within your local authority area for recreation is within the spirit and the guidance.
Where they live is irrelevant to spreading covid. Maybe they live in a cottage at the foot of Creag Meagaidh or maybe they live in Aviemore.

It's the mixed and unclear messages that are wrong not what these climbers did. It says in the guidance golf is fine, but the message is also don't leave your house unless it is absolutely necessary. Makes zero sense.

People travelling to climb the hills are not spreading covid not even the tiny percentage who get rescued. And if people are not on the hills they will be somewhere else, some having different mishaps and arguably more chance of human contact.

For me the spirit of the law is try and avoid human contact but get out there play golf, go fishing etc. etc.

The implications of taking away peoples freedom for very little gain is going to be horrendous!

[Marty_JG]

All while the parks in Glasgow are chock-full of people, people in crowds (no rule of 2), dog walkers huddle together talking, etc.

But the big transmission are people breaking the law in secret: household visits. Go around the side streets in Glasgow after 9 on Friday/Weekend and you'll hear the wee parties going on.

[gman]

There's a natural reaction to look for someone to blame for the outbreak, but we know from experience how colds and flu spread and covid seems to follow a similar pattern.

However, contact within households is thought to be responsible for roughly 70% of SARS-CoV-2 transmission when widespread community control measures are in place.

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3181

[shinenotburn]

I first thought they meant Health Authority boundaries, so people didn't put pressure on another Health Authority and maybe spread it to a hospital and thus infect a whole other area. But no, politicians only think of themselves, so they impose Local Council Authority boundaries on us. That is weird and meaningless, unless of course it is an effort to make money from this disaster. What kind of politicians would do a thing like that? All of them...
So now we have thousands of people tramping around parks in towns and cities, breathing each other's exhaled breath, when just outside the boundaries we have miles of open land, coast and hills, where we could avoid each other like the pla... sorry...

No one has a clue where their Health Board boundaries are in Scotland never mind in England where there are over 200 trusts. It's cock up not conspiracy.

Iain.

[Tringa]

The walkers on Creag Meagaidh were definitely within the letter of the law but not within the spirit.

The law is clear but unfortunately ridiculous.

As long as the encouragement to stay local is guidance there will be people who abuse it.

Dave

I'm not sure I agree with that Tringa. Surely the spirit of the law is to avoid covid transmission, so the only way they broke the spirit of the law is by getting into trouble and calling out MRT. I think travelling within your local authority area for recreation is within the spirit and the guidance.
Where they live is irrelevant to spreading covid. Maybe they live in a cottage at the foot of Creag Meagaidh or maybe they live in Aviemore.

It's the mixed and unclear messages that are wrong not what these climbers did. It says in the guidance golf is fine, but the message is also don't leave your house unless it is absolutely necessary. Makes zero sense.

People travelling to climb the hills are not spreading covid not even the tiny percentage who get rescued. And if people are not on the hills they will be somewhere else, some having different mishaps and arguably more chance of human contact.

For me the spirit of the law is try and avoid human contact but get out there play golf, go fishing etc. etc.

The implications of taking away peoples freedom for very little gain is going to be horrendous!

I agree everyone should do all they can to reduce the spread of the disease and yes, the walkers on Creag Meagaidh could live at the foot, but that is unlikely. If they travelled from any town there was almost certainly somewhere they could walk closer to home.

I agree the messages and law could be a lot clearer. I'd go for a simple exercise allowed up to 10 miles from home. That would keep people local.

Dave

[CharlesT]

No one has a clue where their Health Board boundaries are in Scotland never mind in England where there are over 200 trusts. It's cock up not conspiracy.

Iain.

If you look here scot.nhs.uk/boundaries I think you will find that information readily available.

[Dave Hewitt]

No one has a clue where their Health Board boundaries are in Scotland

I think health board boundaries in Scotland are pretty widely known - people tend to know which health board they live in, at least. And during the spell (which seemed quite sensible to me) when health board boundaries where the allowed travel limits, various of my hillgoing chums swotted up on them and became quite knowledgeable about how they related to hill areas. Generally they seem linked to council areas, eg my own NHS area of Forth Valley is a composite of Stirling, Clacks and Falkirk council areas.

[Marty_JG]

I think ... people tend to know which health board they live in, at least.

They might know which HA they live in, they are less likely to know the boundaries of that authority.

[Dave Hewitt]

They might know which HA they live in, they are less likely to know the boundaries of that authority.

I agree, but in terms of people wanting to do outdoorsy stuff that relates to those boundaries (given the NHS area limits at the time and the local authority limits just now), it isn't particularly difficult to find out, especially since NHS areas generally relate closely to council areas. The actual boundaries are often on hill ground - eg on the Ochils the Stirling/Clacks/Perth+Kinross boundaries wiggle about in some interesting ways - but that's largely irrelevant given that it's travelling to/from start-points that matters in legal/guidance terms - people can walk as far as they want once they've started, provided they get back to the same place.

To take an example round here, I think most folk would know that Bridge of Allan and Blairlogie are in Stirling whereas Menstrie, Alva and Tillicoultry are in Clacks - and all of them are in the Forth Valley NHS area - whereas Auchterarder, say, is in P+K council and Tayside NHS. If folk are coming from further afield to walk then they might well not know these details - but that's kind of the point, given that the idea is to stay pretty local.

[CharlesT]

I think ... people tend to know which health board they live in, at least.

They might know which HA they live in, they are less likely to know the boundaries of that authority.

For goodness sake! Just look it up!

[WalkWithWallace]

What have I missed, why are people arguing about Health Board areas? It was council authority areas and 5 miles out with from the boundary.

[Glengavel]

If only there was some sort of cartographical representation we could refer to...

[Marty_JG]

If the council areas are smaller than the NHS areas then that makes more sense from a viral containment point of view.

Not as good for hillwalkers, though. I'd be able to get out farther & further.