Glencoe hillwalkers fined for travel violation.

[Dave Hewitt]

What have I missed, why are people arguing about Health Board areas? It was council authority areas and 5 miles out with from the boundary.

It was the latter part of last year - Scotland had quite a lengthy spell when you were not meant to stray (in driving terms at least) outwith your NHS area. At present it's council areas plus five miles, as you say.

More generally, when people say they don't know where boundaries etc are, I fear it's an extension of the now-common thing of lots of folk going to hills without looking at maps beforehand for planning purposes and also often not having a map with them on the hill for navigation purposes. It's all downloads and pre-determined routes and (increasingly in Scotland, which is worrying) people following other walkers on the assumption that they're heading for the same place and will stay in sight. There's a fairly widespread opinion - with which I agree - that the standard of hill navigation has declined quite markedly over the past decade or more. Go back 25 years, say, and Highland pubs on Friday evenings were full of people poring over maps, making their own plans for the following day, and it was really rare to encounter someone on a hill who didn't have a map (usually well-worn) with them. I know times change and things move on, but the current situation in terms of navigation skill seems to be a regression.

[Sunset tripper]

I agree everyone should do all they can to reduce the spread of the disease and yes, the walkers on Creag Meagaidh could live at the foot, but that is unlikely. If they travelled from any town there was almost certainly somewhere they could walk closer to home.

I agree the messages and law could be a lot clearer. I'd go for a simple exercise allowed up to 10 miles from home. That would keep people local.

Dave

Of course people could exercise closer to home, but things like golf, fishing, mountain biking, canoeing, hilwalking etc. etc. is not exercise, it is outdoor recreation and it has been proven to be having a negligible affect on the spread of covid. Outdoor recreation is allowed! Why punish people for no real gain?

If you think the restrictions should be a lot tougher that's an opinion everyone is entitled to. Why 10 miles? why not ban cycling like they did in France? Why not ban golf? Why not ban hillwalking?

My opinion is the figures are coming down and outdoor recreation (not exercise), is having close to zero impact on the numbers, it's not even on the radar at the moment. I don't see the point in restricting people to their local park or local street when the benefits for people getting out far outweighs the risk.

It comes across as punishing people just for the sake of it, and there are all the mental health issues that follow such a policy!

[matt_outandabout]

I agree with @Sunset Tripper - being outdoors is not a significant risk for spreading CV19, but the impact on mental, physical and social health of shutting 'outdoors' down is very real.

Speaking to a friend yesterday - for every MRT tale of rescue and Police fine making headlines he suggest that as a policeman he is seeing many more (as in a few each week in one area of England) suicides.

Add in long term issues and we need to balance risk and benefit. I am glad I am not the politician or advisor having to make such impossible decisions.


I do have a concern that as the nicer weather arrives(!) we will see MRT and police under increased pressure as more folk than usual take to the hills. Folk are motivated to 'get outdoors', and I can see the usual naivety or daft behaviours being exhibited in larger numbers than normal.

[al78]

If you think the restrictions should be a lot tougher that's an opinion everyone is entitled to. Why 10 miles? why not ban cycling like they did in France? Why not ban golf? Why not ban hillwalking?

Firstly, banning cycling would heavily and unfairly/unreasonably impact those who don't have a car and a bicycle is their primary mode of transport, so banning cycling would be like banning driving for other people. Secondly, it is illogical to ban cycling whilst allowing people to use public transport, the risk of transmission on the latter is much higher than the former. Ultimately it is not any particulay activity that is the issue, it is the mingling with other people that is the problem, particularly indoors where transmission is more likely, so it is not about banning a particular activity, it is about not doing a particular activity with others outside your bubble. A solo cyclist, fisherman, or hillwalker is not going to be spreading the virus.

[Sunset tripper]

Firstly, banning cycling would heavily and unfairly/unreasonably impact those who don't have a car and a bicycle is their primary mode of transport, so banning cycling would be like banning driving for other people. Secondly, it is illogical to ban cycling whilst allowing people to use public transport, the risk of transmission on the latter is much higher than the former.

In France and other European countries it was recreational cycling and cycling for exercise that was banned. The thinking behind it was a cyclist could have an accident and put pressure on the health service. A key worker could still use a bike for transport but had to carry the paperwork to explain their journey as far as I know.

I would not wish for these type of restrictions here.

Ultimately it is not any particulay activity that is the issue, it is the mingling with other people that is the problem, particularly indoors where transmission is more likely, so it is not about banning a particular activity, it is about not doing a particular activity with others outside your bubble. A solo cyclist, fisherman, or hillwalker is not going to be spreading the virus.

I agree completely and I'm not for banning any outdoor activities or for imposing a 10 mile limit on people leaving their homes. It should also be remembered that recreation and exercise are not the same thing. The statistics and studies have shown that the effect of exercise and recreation even with the travel involved is negligible so no need to have tighter restrictions just for the sake of it.

[jaffa61]

STV news yesterday had an article on whales in the Firth of Forth.
Apparently its okay for non professional naturalists to stand on the shore for hours or go on boats to take photos.......

[WalkWithWallace]

What have I missed, why are people arguing about Health Board areas? It was council authority areas and 5 miles out with from the boundary.

It was the latter part of last year - Scotland had quite a lengthy spell when you were not meant to stray (in driving terms at least) outwith your NHS area. At present it's council areas plus five miles, as you say.

More generally, when people say they don't know where boundaries etc are, I fear it's an extension of the now-common thing of lots of folk going to hills without looking at maps beforehand for planning purposes and also often not having a map with them on the hill for navigation purposes. It's all downloads and pre-determined routes and (increasingly in Scotland, which is worrying) people following other walkers on the assumption that they're heading for the same place and will stay in sight. There's a fairly widespread opinion - with which I agree - that the standard of hill navigation has declined quite markedly over the past decade or more. Go back 25 years, say, and Highland pubs on Friday evenings were full of people poring over maps, making their own plans for the following day, and it was really rare to encounter someone on a hill who didn't have a map (usually well-worn) with them. I know times change and things move on, but the current situation in terms of navigation skill seems to be a regression.

I don't buy into folk not knowing boundaries, that's just ignorance or an excuse. They must be aware of when they're entering and leaving their local council area.

I do tend to agree that map and compass skills are on the decline. The temptation to rely solely on GPS is too easy these days and mobile phones apps are getting ever better. But if you can't read a map then a map on a screen is pretty useless too.

[shinenotburn]

No one has a clue where their Health Board boundaries are in Scotland never mind in England where there are over 200 trusts. It's cock up not conspiracy.

Iain.

If you look here scot.nhs.uk/boundaries I think you will find that information readily available.

It is but how many look?

[matt_outandabout]

No one has a clue where their Health Board boundaries are in Scotland never mind in England where there are over 200 trusts. It's cock up not conspiracy.

Iain.

If you look here scot.nhs.uk/boundaries I think you will find that information readily available.

It is but how many look?

What if I am in one health board but usually the whole village travel to a different one for A&E as it is closer....?

At the end of the day it is hard to legislate/get people to understand that Rule No.1* is the most important factor here.
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*For the avoidance of doubt, click me.

[weedavie]

More generally, when people say they don't know where boundaries etc are, I fear it's an extension of the now-common thing of lots of folk going to hills without looking at maps beforehand for planning purposes and also often not having a map with them on the hill for navigation purposes. It's all downloads and pre-determined routes and (increasingly in Scotland, which is worrying) people following other walkers on the assumption that they're heading for the same place and will stay in sight. There's a fairly widespread opinion - with which I agree - that the standard of hill navigation has declined quite markedly over the past decade or more. Go back 25 years, say, and Highland pubs on Friday evenings were full of people poring over maps, making their own plans for the following day, and it was really rare to encounter someone on a hill who didn't have a map (usually well-worn) with them. I know times change and things move on, but the current situation in terms of navigation skill seems to be a regression.

Knowing areas isn't easy. I've no idea of my NHS area. Just because someone challenged my impeccable knowledge of Edinburgh council boundaries I looked, and heavens, I was very wrong. It's the bypass for a bit but really collapses to exclude Musselburgh. On the other hand it takes to the ridge of the Pentlands and at the Borestane, you can step out to Borders and Midlothian. The frontier with the Borders runs on for a kilometre to West Cairn, from where you can see loads of areas and Northumberland, but I wander.

Dave's right about the lack of map obsession and its consequences. Trivially, I retrieved an electric biker in summer. He was following a route above Lauder and when his bike broke, he could neither fix it nor improvise a new route. More seriously, a few months ago a young friend had moved off the steep path on Stuc a'Chroin to scramble up the face and two lassies followed her. She'd to go up and get her less experienced companion to the top then go down and talk them to the summit.

I'm not condemning any of the behaviour, because my learning has mostly been through cocking up, but the general level of competence seems to be lower. Twenty years ago, many people had the shape of the map stuck in their heads just from looking at it so often and they could practically recite the route description from the Munro book or Storer. But maybe it's just an increase in traffic on the Munro motorways. Off the beaten track, I'm not seeing many more bodies and those I meet still go right across the age groups.

[Sunset tripper]

I've no idea of my NHS area. Just because someone challenged my impeccable knowledge of Edinburgh council boundaries I looked, and heavens, I was very wrong.

Yes I understand that, I was the same. I was not too bad with the old County boundaries but the current local authorities I wasn't sure of.
But it's the same as working out a route on a hill. If you have to know, you soon find out.
I can see some folk having an excuse for not knowing their local authority boundaries but for people used to navigating on the hills it shouldn't be a big deal to work it out.

I now know that if I am going to climb Ben Macdui from the ski car park (if it was open ) I would start in Highland and venture in and out of Moray and Aberdeenshire to the summit of Macdui. All the time keeping to rules for leaving your LA area.

Who ever thought all this nonsense would ever have any importance?

[Dave Hewitt]

But it's the same as working out a route on a hill. If you have to know, you soon find out.

That's similar to my thinking on this - I'm kind of puzzled as to why folk don't just look stuff up. When the whole NHS/council area thing started to come in last autumn, I got the maps out and found it interesting and enjoyable (and, crucially, useful) to see where the boundaries went - council boundaries are clearly marked on Landranger maps, after all. Even in familiar areas there were things to learn - eg on the Ochils I hadn't ever twigged that the summit of Tarmangie is about 20 yards or so on the Perth and Kinross side of the boundary and not shared with Clacks as I'd tended to assume in all my visits over the years. I went there one day during the NHS period when it seemed that you were meant to quite strictly stay put, and I scurried across into NHS Tayside and back to NHS Forth Valley - it took about 50 seconds - feeling rather guilty in a silly kind of way. And there was a recent complicated-sounding Ochils MC outing from various directions that seemed to be based on the premise that the summit of Blairdenon is the meeting point of three council areas - but I fear they were mistaken in this, not that it mattered in practical terms.

I know I sound like a bit of a fogey here, but in olden days - pre-internet and pre-social media particularly - it was completely commonplace to study maps before going out, plotting and planning the intended route and opt-out options, learning stuff and coming up with extra ideas. This wasn't any kind of chore - it was one of the great pleasures of the pastime. It still is, for many people, but for a lot of the newer hillgoers it scarcely seems to feature at all, which is a pity. A lot of people simply don't seem to carry maps these days - not paper ones, at least. I quite often seem to get asked for directions on the hill, and for years I've tended to respond by saying Show me on your map where you think you are - but these days that often seems to fall on stony ground, as they look at you as if to say Map? Why would I have one of those?

[matt_outandabout]

That's similar to my thinking on this - I'm kind of puzzled as to why folk don't just look stuff up. When the whole NHS/council area thing started to come in last autumn, I got the maps out and found it interesting and enjoyable (and, crucially, useful) to see where the boundaries went - council boundaries are clearly marked on Landranger maps, after all.

In reality, most folk cannot read a map, and even more don't have the inclination.
See the way people use online articles, always go to the same place repetitively, or ask that everything be signposted...

"We" who are outdoory people represent a very few, arguably oddballs, in society.

[Tringa]

But it's the same as working out a route on a hill. If you have to know, you soon find out.

I know I sound like a bit of a fogey here, but in olden days - pre-internet and pre-social media particularly - it was completely commonplace to study maps before going out, plotting and planning the intended route and opt-out options, learning stuff and coming up with extra ideas. This wasn't any kind of chore - it was one of the great pleasures of the pastime. It still is, for many people, but for a lot of the newer hillgoers it scarcely seems to feature at all, which is a pity. A lot of people simply don't seem to carry maps these days - not paper ones, at least. I quite often seem to get asked for directions on the hill, and for years I've tended to respond by saying Show me on your map where you think you are - but these days that often seems to fall on stony ground, as they look at you as if to say Map? Why would I have one of those?

Agree completely. Along with considering routes on the hill, there was also, in the days you refer to, the planning of a holiday - choosing an area(usually one we had never been to before), getting books about it etc. It was all part of the pleasure of getting there.

Unfortunately, many(some who would never have dreamt of wandering away from a road before) have been encouraged to get out into the countryside without any advice that the countryside(especially hills) are not the same as being back home and preparation is needed - more than having Google maps on a phone.

Dave

Dave

[Spade]

Map and compass skills are essential, without doubt. Electronic devices are helpful add ons but thats where they end. Map and compass reading, with regular practice and exercises uing them are essential. The WH route descriptions are also really great for the hill walk preperation.
Hopefully soon we'll all get back to the walks and hills.