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Mountain Rescue

Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby Bonzo » Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:43 pm

A few years back I badly damaged my left ankle on Kinder Scout. I was jumping around in the deepest darkest area of Kinder's bogs when my ankle turned completely over, cracked and began to swell at an alarming rate.

After deciding I could hobble on I 'very' slowly made my towards the western rim and descended down Jacob's Ladder to Edale - it's probably around 5-6 miles. It took an absolute age.

At no point did I ever consider ringing MR despite the pain getting worse with every step but I'm sure that if the weather conditions were different or I reached a point where I could no longer walk a call to MR would have been my only option.

Some may have called MR immediately after the incident - we're all different. There are extreme cases where I'm pretty sure MR want to lynch people on the spot but I've always felt that the vast majority of calls are from people who are in genuine pain or scared.
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Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby Chris Henshall » Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:43 pm

Hey Wee Davie, thanks for posting.
As one old git to another, you’ve certainly identified an issue and, if you read the online annual incident reports of, for example, any of the rescue teams in the Lakes, you’ll find a liberal scattering of examples in which a shout was clearly pretty needless. As long ago as the turn of the millennium, I remember being appalled by the mother of one of my daughter’s friends down in Kent who, because she knew that I did a bit of hillwalking, really enjoyed telling me all about her recent attempt on “the Three Peaks Challenge” before mentioning casually at the end that she hadn’t quite completed it because she "got really tired on Snowdon and had to take the helicopter down in the dark.”! She seemed to think that it was all part of the service…
I’m pretty sure, though, that charging people – even people like her – isn’t the right way forward. For me, there are three possible scenarios in the event of an incident on the hill.
1. The ideal is that, as you suggest, everybody should be self-contained and get themselves out of trouble if at all possible. While I’d do it if the alternative was genuine risk to life and limb, I’d certainly be mortified if I ever had to call out a mountain rescue team either for myself or for someone in my party and I’d bust a gut to get off the hill without having to pull anyone – paid or unpaid – out of their beds.
2. In the event of an incident with genuine risk to life and limb, access to a free mountain rescue service is the ideal. Yes, there is the issue which you identify that the inexperienced or under-educated might initiate a shout too readily but, by and large, the consequences are better than number three, below. Moreover, some of the negative consequences of a free service which is, arguably, a little bit too easy to access, can be countered if those rescued can be (strongly) encouraged either to make a donation or to organise some fundraising for the team. It’s also worth noting that, even if they don’t especially enjoy wandering around a wet hillside at 3.00.am. looking for missing walkers who have already got themselves home, many of those volunteering really enjoy belonging to a team and participating in training exercises.
3. The third scenario – people paying for rescue – opens up a can of worms.
First, the need for payment can disincentivise people from calling out rescue services when they need them; there are many tales of climbers not wishing to be rescued in the Alps because they were uninsured and couldn’t afford a helicopter ride.
Second, rescue becomes a transaction in which paying for a service gives rights to the rescued; how long would it be before someone sued a rescue service for causing them injury when strapping them into a stretcher?
Third, it could easily open the door to compulsory insurance – the thin end of a wedge that might lead to medicals, permits, training courses and who knows what hell?
So, overall, I reckon that we’re currently close to having the best of all worlds – although it would probably be beneficial if those going into the hills were (somehow) to get enough experience to be self-contained and not resort to their mobile phones as soon as the clag rolls in.
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Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby Walkinmyfootsteps » Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:06 pm

I would never call mountain rescue. Mainly because I would always endeavour to get myself off the hills under my own steam.
I often wonder how they do get called out so much given that mobile phones signals are limited in these remote areas. Is it more the popular areas with tourists that see the call outs predominantly?
If a charge is applied it should be for a professional service such as the military who could then respond.
It’s unfair putting volunteers at risk of claims etc not to mention putting themselves at risk of the elements etc.
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Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby davekeiller » Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:05 pm

Mobile phone signal actually isn't that limited in most areas.
Also, remember that if you need to dial 999 you just need signal on a network, not necessarily your network.
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Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby prog99 » Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:29 pm

Walkinmyfootsteps wrote:I often wonder how they do get called out so much given that mobile phones signals are limited in these remote areas. Is it more the popular areas with tourists that see the call outs predominantly?

The phone signal had greatly improved in recent years to the extent I could get faster speeds and a better signal in the middle of nowhere than I could in Edinburgh.

Walkinmyfootsteps wrote:If a charge is applied it should be for a professional service such as the military who could then respond.

The military haven't run the helicopters for quite some time and calls go through the police.
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Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby prog99 » Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:39 pm

Walkinmyfootsteps wrote:I would never call mountain rescue. Mainly because I would always endeavour to get myself off the hills under my own steam.

Some examples of friends (all of whom were very experienced walkers) who were airlifted off. I'd not expect any of them to have crawled off etc...
Dislocated knee on an stuc.
Snapped cruciate on Beinn Sgrithall
Broken leg on Liathach

And one I helped on.
Spiral leg fracture on Beinn Udlaidh (winter climbing incident) We got them off the climb onto flat ground (They offered to drag themselves down steep ground and then rough terrain) and sent their climbing partner to phone mrt (a sea king from lossie was training nearby so a very quick pickup)

But feel free if you are ever in the above situations to give it a go.
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Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby rgf101 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:10 am

Walkinmyfootsteps wrote:I would never call mountain rescue. Mainly because I would always endeavour to get myself off the hills under my own steam.

That's an equally unhelpful attitude, to be honest. MR are quite capable of making a judgement call on what help you need and if you can walk off, they'll tell you to do that and they'll check in to be sure you make it. I bet they see plenty of "should have bloody called us earlier" cases where a quick late afternoon phone call would have prevented an overnight search.
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Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby EmilyD » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:06 pm

And sometimes situations that seem clear from behind your laptop screen aren't. Many years ago, I was on a winter hillwalk on a munro with a couple of experienced friends. One said she wasn't feeling great, so we turned around about 1K before the summit. Fair enough. No problem. Then she had a panic attack while descending a fairly straightforward snow slope, and she huddled in the snow and would not move. She was far from a newbie to winter mountains -- but she had some stuff going on. Myself and the third hiker tried everything we could think of to encourage her to move, but she couldn't. It was the middle of winter; it was bloody cold, and staying there forever wasn't an option. After a few hours, we called MRT. They rocketed up the snow slope, put her on a short rope, and the nice, reassuring MRT man with his short rope got her out of whatever head space she was in, and everyone walked down.

I have since been criticized by other friends, who weren't there, for that callout. They told me that they would have got her walking down that hill. I don't know. It wasn't like an inexperienced hillwalker who just needs a bit of encouragement and guidance. It was a serious anxiety thing, and she was properly frozen in place, even though she theoretically knew how to descend that slope, and had descended many similar ones in the past. Maybe myself and the other climber weren't the most convincing of people. Maybe someone being really harsh with her could have convinced her to move. Maybe that would have made it worse. Maybe she needed a nice MRT man with a short rope.

Sometimes, you just gotta be there.
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Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby matt_outandabout » Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:09 pm

I agree Emily.

Too easy to say 'I wouldn't' or offer some tale of crawling off a hill by your teeth as a way of evidencing how committed you are to not asking for help. But some days help is what is needed, for everyones safety.

I have called MRT, a few times, in Lakes (x2), Scotland (x2) and Peak (x1).

Heck, I am even on an episode of BBC '999' with Patterdale MRT - the team at the centre of this incident.

I have also trained with them as volunteer 'body' (Scotland x2) and for water search & rescue (x annually for 5 years).

I will have no hesitation in calling them again. And I have no judgement for those who have called for help.
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Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby AyrshireAlps » Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:53 pm

💯% with Emily and Matt here.
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Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby Sunset tripper » Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:32 am

matt_outandabout wrote:
I have called MRT, a few times, in Lakes (x2), Scotland (x2) and Peak (x1).

Heck, I am even on an episode of BBC '999' with Patterdale MRT - the team at the centre of this incident.


Hi Matt, how have you happened to be involved in so many mountain rescues? Is it just bad luck or some other reason. It's not a criticism- I'm genuinely interested. I don't know that many hillwalkers but can only think of 3 incidents where people I know have been involved. One friend who got out of his depth on An Teallach but got talked down without mountain rescue getting out on the hill. Another who is very experienced climber got airlifted uninjured off the Alps. Another experienced guy with several rounds of corbetts and munros who had a fatal winter accident on a scottish hill.

MRT generally like going out to help folk. I know one x MRT friend who said there was nothing better than setting out in the dark to try and help someone.

Fortunately I haven't had the need to make a call (touch wood) but I would try my best to get myself off the hill but obviously that might not always be possible or sensible.

At the moment I would be less likely to call MRT because of the police involvement and all the obscure interpretations of the present laws which is very unfortunate.
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Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby AyrshireAlps » Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:42 am

Just in case he doesn't see this, Matt has been an outdoor instructor for years, so spends a lot more time in the mountains than most of us do.

At the moment I would be less likely to call MRT because of the police involvement and all the obscure interpretations of the present laws which is very unfortunate.



If you're within your LA, then there's nothing to worry about, there's been plenty of MRT incidents over the past year, don't focus on the few that have attracted negative press in that time.
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Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby WalkWithWallace » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:52 am

Walkinmyfootsteps wrote:I would never call mountain rescue. Mainly because I would always endeavour to get myself off the hills under my own steam.
I often wonder how they do get called out so much given that mobile phones signals are limited in these remote areas. Is it more the popular areas with tourists that see the call outs predominantly?
If a charge is applied it should be for a professional service such as the military who could then respond.
It’s unfair putting volunteers at risk of claims etc not to mention putting themselves at risk of the elements etc.


Never say "never". You can't predict what may happen to you and how you'll react to the situation. Also there is no shame in calling MR if you get into difficulty, even if it's for advice if you've got a bit disorientated.

I think there is a problem with newbies getting into difficulty, then they don't have the navigation skills to get themselves out of a spot of bother.

As for mobile phone signal on the hills, they've improved greatly in the last 5-6 years. Even in 2014 I got a solid 2G signal on every summit in Fisherfield. Fast forward to 2019-20 I was getting 4G in Fisherfield. The Glens can be an issue still for a signal.
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Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby Sunset tripper » Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:54 am

AyrshireAlps wrote:
If you're within your LA, then there's nothing to worry about, there's been plenty of MRT incidents over the past year, don't focus on the few that have attracted negative press in that time.


I haven't worried about it myself to be honest, and a great point you make about if you are in your local authority area that is ok.
Why hasn't mountaineering scotland come out and said that, rather than quoting the scottish government advice which is very obscure?
MRT and many other groups who were desperate to keep folk off the hills a year ago, are still not stepping forward and saying anyone from there own LA area are allowed back.
No one has stood up to represent the outdoor community and said it is fine to travel anywhere within your local authority area. :?
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Re: Mountain Rescue

Postby Dave Hewitt » Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:12 am

AyrshireAlps wrote:If you're within your LA, then there's nothing to worry about

I'd be wary of making that assumption, at least with regard to the police side of things, as the current situation in Scotland still allows them to stop people on the basis of not staying local enough. Here in Stirling I know of people managing to climb Munros etc elsewhere in the Stirling council area, as per the law, but I also know of a couple who were fairly recently (mid-Feb) turned back between Stirling and Callander - presumably as per the guidance - when they were heading for a low-level walk near the latter. It appears that the various police areas are doing things differently, and Stirling has been at the strict end pretty much throughout.
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