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Right to roam v Private Road

Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby pt2021 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:50 am

As posted above, this is from our lawyers who’ve already been in contact with SDC. We fail to see what you’re not grasping from the info below (which is the law)? We look forward to the AO’s visit:

“What is not covered by the right to roam?

While the access rights may appear to be very extensive, they are subject to many restrictions. Land over which statutory access rights cannot be exercised includes:
▪ any land to the extent that there are buildings on it, a fixed piece of machinery or anywhere that provides an individual with privacy or shelter, such as a tent
or caravan. This covers both residential and non- residential buildings;
▪ gardens around houses, caravans or tents etc., of a sufficient extent to allow a reasonable degree of privacy.
Public access rights also do not apply to:
▪ common gardens that are restricted to residents, even if they are separated from the homes themselves;
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby jupe1407 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:18 am

pt2021 wrote:As posted above, this is from our lawyers who’ve already been in contact with SDC. We fail to see what you’re not grasping from the info below (which is the law)? We look forward to the AO’s visit:

“What is not covered by the right to roam?

While the access rights may appear to be very extensive, they are subject to many restrictions. Land over which statutory access rights cannot be exercised includes:
▪ any land to the extent that there are buildings on it, a fixed piece of machinery or anywhere that provides an individual with privacy or shelter, such as a tent
or caravan. This covers both residential and non- residential buildings;
▪ gardens around houses, caravans or tents etc., of a sufficient extent to allow a reasonable degree of privacy.
Public access rights also do not apply to:
▪ common gardens that are restricted to residents, even if they are separated from the homes themselves;


Assuming we're still talking about a "private road" which gives access to several properties, none of the above apply. Unless of course people are literally walking through your garden (which of course would be unacceptable).

I'm curious though, when you bought the place, I assume you were made aware of this right of access. If not, you should be asking your solicitor some pretty searching questions. If so, then you are trying to prevent access which you know fine well is legit, which is giving off fairly heavy NIMBY vibes.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby Navvarr » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:31 am

I notice you're still trying to quote the 'law' from a copy and paste from the Internet- good luck with that.

I'll go back to the day you decided to challenge myself and my walking party and I'm still mystified as you how we were transgressing your interpretation of the law and you feel that in some way your privacy was being violated by us passing.

Here's a GPS grab of the day in question- now this is a fantastic walk for anyone following this thread, I heartily recommend it.

You'll notice we parked in the Queens View Carpark- so no, we didn't park next to your property, we then set off up the Queens View round by the Whangie then off down to Burncrooks Reservoir before coming back past Edenmill and along the Right of Way which is clearly marked on my map onto your 'private road' - now I've zoomed in at this point because you'll notice that the line goes right past your property- there's no incursion into any of your grounds- I didn't have a ladder with me so I couldn't peak in your windows and I've said already, the girls I was with had no interest in peaking into your bedroom either.

So, really - there was no need to challenge us that day- a party of walkers, out on a legitimate walk, sticking to the paths and we're met by someone trying to say we shouldn't be there. -Sorry pal, you are on a hiding on this one- you don't have a leg to stand on and as I've said when I'm walking along that path and you try to challenge me to not walk along that path I'll wait patiently for you to call the police.

If I were you I'd back off slowly, accept that you're in the wrong here and don't draw attention to this because you simply are not going to stop folk from walking past your house, if fact you're actually generating interest from folks who really don't like it when people try to close of rights of way to suit their own selfish objectives.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby Navvarr » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:13 am

https://www.ramblers.org.uk/policy/scotland/access/scottish-access-rights.aspx

There's a wee bit of reading up for you- I'll not bother copying and pasting any of it since I'm sure that you can read.

I've demonstrated that myself and my friends were behaving impeccably whilst walking past your property and I don't expect any more challenges from you.

The access officer will be in touch with you so that all this can be clarified for you on your part, on our part, it's very clear we know we're allowed to walk along the road and we also know we're not allowed to put ladders up to your windows or head into your garden for a game of footie or join in your BBQ.

Just as a wee aside, I've been walking the Auchineden Estate for years and I have noticed a number of properties further up that road seem to have extended their gardens onto what is also a path- they've popped up a few 'private property' signs here and there and in general seem to have made wee land grabs- I'm not sure the owners of this properties will want you to be drawing the attention of the access officer or Stirling Council to your area so perhaps don't draw attention to yourself by vociferously challenging legitimate walkers passing by your property.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby pt2021 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:42 pm

Ok, so I am having Right to Roam and Rights of Way thrown at me here, and it’s unfortunate that there is so much misinformation on this forum. So I thought I would explain a bit for you.

First off, lets consider: existing Rights of Way are unaffected by the legislation; therefore if it is a Right of Way as so many of you seem to think, then the 2003 Act has no impact on it. Let’s look a bit deeper into this. So, is it a Right of Way? Well, as you may or may not know, unlike in England, Scotland does not have a specific register which details Rights of Way however there are about 7000 recorded Rights of Way. The majority of Rights of Way are historic, and the Heritage Paths website happily details these for us – it’s a really good site.

Here’s the thing – the track that you refer to which links the Edenmill’s road to the private driveway is not an historic track and it is not a Right of Way on the Heritage Paths site – it was created by the Christmas Tree company in what was previously just a field, so it is definitely not an historic Right of Way, and I very much doubt you will be able to argue in the Land Courts or even a Sheriff Court that it is.

Now, the private drive is most definitely not a Right of Way – it definitely does not meet the criteria for a Right of Way and it is also not recorded in one of the historic Rights of Way in Scotland. So we can safely rule that out too. So based on the evidence can we agree that it’s safe to say that Right of Way doesn’t apply here.

So the next port of call is then the 2003 Act – The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, specifically section 6.

Having already been castigated on here for quoting the legislation, lets move on to the evidence you kindly provided – something of an easier read – Thanks for the link to the Ramblers Association Page – that is really helpful. Scottish access rights - Ramblers

I am not sure how you think that helps your cause though but anyway lets work our way through it. Let me point you to the section in the link you posted which is entitled ‘Scotland on Foot, our guide to getting more out of walking in Scotland’, specifically Page 3 entitled “Where the statutory right of access does not apply’. It states that those which are mainly relevant to walkers are listed below – to save my fingers I will cut and paste it:

“Houses and gardens - Access rights don’t apply to houses or other dwellings and you must stay far enough away from them to make sure that you don’t intrude on the pri[1]vacy of the occupants or create un[1]reasonable disturbance for people in the house.

For those of you who have walked on the private drive past my house you will have seen that my house wall bounds it – if you are walking it you have no option other than to be within a couple of metres from our bedroom windows. That does not align with the dicta in the above statement “you must stay far enough away from them to make sure that you don’t intrude on the privacy of the occupants or create unreasonable disturbance for people in the house”.

This leads us to the next statement - “In the great majority of cases this simply means keeping out of their gardens. Where there are large country houses surrounded by extensive grounds, it’s always a matter of judgement how close to the house access rights apply, taking into account the matters of privacy and disturbance mentioned above. The Code advises that in these circumstances you should keep a sensible distance from the house and use a path or track if one’s available.

The above is quoted directly from the ramblers association page so if you won’t listen to me perhaps you will listen to them.

So when you walk on the private driveway which is not a track or a path, rather it provides vehicular access for the vehicles of the properties which it serves, you are not keeping a sensible distance from my house – it would be very difficult to argue this to any Land Tribunal.

So, there is no Right of Way, and the legislation does not apply – so on what grounds, excuse the pun, are you asserting the right to walk down our private drive
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby gorillagorilla » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:38 pm

If it is your garden just put a gate and fence up?

If you can't do that sounds like your problem is you bought a house adjoining a shared access?
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby Navvarr » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:54 pm

I'll just keep this nice and short.

Not being an expect on Rights of Way and Rights to roam I contacted the Stirling Council Access Officer.

The Access Officer has reviewed this and has informed me that a 'Right of responsible access' applies.

In short, we can walk right past your property and you have no right to stop us.

Now, I appreciate that you'll disagree with that so as I've already stated, I'll quite happily continue to enjoy my walks around Auchineden as I have for years and if you choose to try to deter me then I'll wait patiently as you give the police a call.

The Access Officer is going to be making contact with the estate in due course and they'll give you some clarity on this matter. I'll let the Access Officer do their job since they have the relevant legislation to hand.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby rabthecairnterrier » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:04 pm

pt2021 wrote:... it’s unfortunate that there is so much misinformation on this forum....
Scotland does not have a specific register which details Rights of Way however there are about 7000 recorded Rights of Way.

From reading your responses it seems you may be falling victim to some misinformation yourself.
Firstly, your reference to the Lands Tribunal - the Lands Tribunal in Scotland has no remit or jurisdiction regarding the Accees provisions of the Land Reform Act.
Secondly, re: registers of RoW's - there are such registers maintained by individual local authorities.
Finally, regarding the status of the contested route, can you confirm whether or not the "drive" referred to forms part of your property as shown in the Title Deeds? Or do you just have access over it by Right of Servitude?
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby Navvarr » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:07 pm

Auchineden Estate own the land, he's not the landowner.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby rabthecairnterrier » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:54 pm

Navvarr wrote:Auchineden Estate own the land, he's not the landowner.

If that is indeed the case, then pt2021 is not in a position to challenge anyone over use of it.
Let's wait and see whether he can confirm what you say regarding ownership.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby pt2021 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:25 am

We can go back & forth as many times as you want but this will be my last post on the matter. The facts are that we do own the land our properties & gardens are on. We live here, you don’t. Our privacy is being invaded & we have rights to privacy under law. We’ve given you proof of why we’re right that has been provided to us by a top, Scottish law firm (who have been my lawyers for over 15 years). Please remember that it’s the conduct of some people that has led us to this point, had the walkers, cyclists, pet owners & drivers in question all been a bit more considerate then we wouldn’t be at this juncture. I note the antagonistic note of some of the posters, which are clearly veiled threats. Please remember these are our homes, we live here with our families & pets & expect to be able to do so safely. That said, it’s in writing for all to see. All l/we have tried to do is get our point across in a fair & civil manner. I genuinely wish you all well. Cheers & thanks for the enlightening experience.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby Marty_JG » Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:06 pm

pt2021 wrote:We can go back & forth as many times as you want but this will be my last post on the matter. The facts are that we do own the land our properties & gardens are on. We live here, you don’t. Our privacy is being invaded & we have rights to privacy under law.


The fact is you also chose to purchase a property adjacent to a legal right of way.

We’ve given you proof of why we’re right that has been provided to us by a top, Scottish law firm (who have been my lawyers for over 15 years).


Almost all court cases are decided between two groups of opposing lawyers who think they are right or at least can win. Having paid legal council support you is not the same as having a legal victory, the Access Officer and potentially the courts will be the final arbiters.


Please remember these are our homes, we live here with our families & pets & expect to be able to do so safely. That said, it’s in writing for all to see.


I live in a property with my family and pets. It overlooks a street that is also a right of way. I cannot prevent people from turning their heads towards my property. If you want fully legal seclusion then you shouldn't purchase property that at first glance appears secluded but is in fact a legal right of way.

I should also mention that going out and confronting walkers, without clear legal justification, is a legal offence called Breach of the Peace.

You should consider asking your 15 year old solicitor for details.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby al78 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:50 pm

Marty_JG wrote:
pt2021 wrote:We can go back & forth as many times as you want but this will be my last post on the matter. The facts are that we do own the land our properties & gardens are on. We live here, you don’t. Our privacy is being invaded & we have rights to privacy under law.


The fact is you also chose to purchase a property adjacent to a legal right of way.



I suspect this isn't really about use of the right of way, but about dick heads who are causing issues for the residents. Passing and repassing is a legally acceptable use of a public right of way. Using it to go right up to someones window and gawp through it is not. Causing damage to private land or property is also not acceptable.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby Marty_JG » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:57 pm

al78 wrote:Using it to go right up to someones window and gawp through it is not.


I agree that would be completely unacceptable but I'm deeply sceptical that it has happened let alone regularly. We all see a lot of walkers in the hills passing farms and homes and do we really see that happening let alone on a regular basis?

Hoards of dirty walkers constantly putting their noses and chins on their panes of glass? That is really happening?
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby jupe1407 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:51 pm

al78 wrote:
Marty_JG wrote:
pt2021 wrote:We can go back & forth as many times as you want but this will be my last post on the matter. The facts are that we do own the land our properties & gardens are on. We live here, you don’t. Our privacy is being invaded & we have rights to privacy under law.


The fact is you also chose to purchase a property adjacent to a legal right of way.



I suspect this isn't really about use of the right of way, but about dick heads who are causing issues for the residents. Passing and repassing is a legally acceptable use of a public right of way. Using it to go right up to someones window and gawp through it is not. Causing damage to private land or property is also not acceptable.


If he wants to be taken seriously in regard to complaining about "dick heads" then perhaps he should be confronting them, instead of Navarr's group who do not appear to have done anything wrong whatsoever. I suspect this isn't really about dickhead walkers and cyclists but more about someone buying a property without carrying out due diligence because it's in a nice place in the country then going full NIMBY when other people want to perfectly legally access the same nice bit of country.

I'm surprised his "top law firm" didn't do something as basic as give him advice regarding having a right of way next to his property :roll:
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