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Right to roam v Private Road

Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby rohan » Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:12 pm

I have avoided getting involved in this because I am a homeowner who owns a (very) short track immediately adjacent to my home. I bought the home before buying the track. The track is clearly needed for the general public to access open land beyond it. My home is a tourist attraction (but not open to the public) and is signposted from the main road. During the summer we have a number of cars coming down the road to have a look. 99.9% of people are respectful and don't stray into the curtilage of the building (enclosed by a wall but with no gate). Some do, but generally through ignorance. I sometimes have to re-asssure people that it is fine for them to walk through on the track .I do not have signage up. In 6 years I have had one unpleasant incident when I was verbally abused by someone who did not respect the curtilage or my request for him and his partner to come down off my roof garden.This is not typical behaviour and I refuse to let it dictate how I respond to the majority of the visiting public, some of whom have become friends.I feel that as I am lucky to live in such a wonderful place, if I can't manage be pleasant to visitors I have no right to live here.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby AyrshireAlps » Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:53 pm

Bravo rohan :clap:
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby al78 » Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:32 pm

AyrshireAlps wrote:Bravo rohan :clap:


Agreed, sound logic, don't let extreme incidents dictate your judgement of the rest.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby rohan » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:48 am

al78 wrote:
AyrshireAlps wrote:Bravo rohan :clap:


Agreed, sound logic, don't let extreme incidents dictate your judgement of the rest.


NB , I am not looking for brownie points but my experience has led me to the conclusion that if you remain polite and make the assumption that most people are not out to cause trouble, people respond in kind and I am not left with a bad feeling dominating my weekends. Aggression reduces understanding and empathy as demonstrated by the discussion in this thread. You can also educate if you remain calm and I have to admit the time when I was verbally abused, I lost it somewhat and it became a slanging match with the couple going away shouting that they had everyright to walk into the cutilage of the buildings.. Elsewhere, I have come across officious "get offa my land" aggression and it does no-one any good.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby matt_outandabout » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:25 am

I used to live overlooking the Falls of Dochart in Killin.

Our parking places and house frontage were clearly paved with bricks, the neighbours with gravel, all with plant pots, small fences across boundary etc.

The road outside however has no pavement and does get busy.

This led to many visitors walking across our paved area. The vast majority were respectful and looking the other way at the view.

A few each day in the season would look into what was our downstairs children's bedrooms, a few more would actually park in the front garden due to the double yellows.

Once we had someone park for 4 days(!) as they headed off for a canoe down the Tay. Once a Land Rover owners club actually drove into our back garden en-masse when they mistook two of our work vehicles (LR 110) as one of their club....! I once had someone park, refuse to move when asked nicely as we needed the space for work vehicles, and returned to find 4 minibuses and trailers blocking them in as my staff had a break while waiting for next school group - my staff team having thought that I had a shiny new car :-)

Yes it irked at times, but the vast, vast majority of people were respectful and frankly out enjoying the countryside. There were issues at times, but they were both minor and few. Was it worth lots of signs, arguments and 'pushing water uphill'? Was the walking across the first metre or so of our land unreasonable on a busy road? Even when things were frustrating (cars parked in our front garden mainly) it wasn't that big an issue.

It seems to me that the homeowners in this thread are both the wrong side of the access law and the wrong side of Rule No.1 in life. I benefit from Scotland's balanced Access Laws - and when we lived in Killin, in that spot, it was a part of life that tourists came to visit. It really didn't dictate our life and really wasn't that big an issue - even when I found the 10+ Landrovers parked on our lawn....!

Anyway, this was the view from our lounge as compensation for the visitors.
ImageDochart by Matt Robinson, on Flickr
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby AyrshireAlps » Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:12 pm

NB , I am not looking for brownie points but my experience has led me to the conclusion that if you remain polite and make the assumption that most people are not out to cause trouble, people respond in kind and I am not left with a bad feeling dominating my weekends.


Aye, completely agree. I live within 50 yrads of about 4 different bars and restaurants, I knew that when I moved there, and I can't really complain when folks walk past a little worse for wear.

The folks in the link below opposed an extension to a skate park (which was there before they bought their big dreamplot) and behaved like spoilt kids. Be careful what you wish for, it's their neighbours I feel for....

https://www.reddit.com/r/Wales/comments/nn4kvd/this_is_the_outside_of_the_couples_house_who_were/
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby Marty_JG » Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:58 pm

There is also this:

The Streisand effect is a social phenomenon that occurs when an attempt to hide, remove, or censor information has the unintended consequence of further publicising that information, often via the Internet. It is named after American entertainer Barbra Streisand, whose attempt to suppress the California Coastal Records Project's photograph of her residence in Malibu, California, taken to document California coastal erosion, inadvertently drew further attention to it in 2003.

Barbra Streisand sued photographer Kenneth Adelman and Pictopia.com for violation of privacy. The US$50 million lawsuit endeavoured to remove an aerial photograph of Streisand's mansion from the publicly available collection of 12,000 California coastline photographs. Adelman photographed the beachfront property to document coastal erosion as part of the California Coastal Records Project, which was intended to influence government policymakers Before Streisand filed her lawsuit, "Image 3850" had been downloaded from Adelman's website only six times; two of those downloads were by Streisand's attorneys. As a result of the case, public knowledge of the picture increased greatly; more than 420,000 people visited the site over the following month.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

In other words, going public on an in-conceived "git awf moi laaand" bender (particularly where there is lawful access rights, aggravated by the fact it's not even your land) might well encourage rather than deter future walkers.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby BigTed » Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:28 pm

How it should be done.

Image

The path into Glen Feshie formerly ran right past the house whose chimneys are visible ahead. Now rerouted and clearly signposted. The new route is possibly fractionally longer but any extra distance is outweighed by the fact it is flatter than the old route past the house. What you call a win/win.

The solution for the the householder in this thread would be for a new gate to be installed giving access to the track from Stockiemuir Road 100m east of his house along with a couple of signposts.

Or alternatively live and let live.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby matt_outandabout » Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:13 pm

Or alternatively live and let live.


I get the feeling one side of this debate won't move on very easily....
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby rodderss » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:55 am

When we were kids and plundering apples in peoples gardens funnily enough nobody came out and said lads be careful with those apples they are cooking apples you will end up with a sore stomach.

No,it ranged from a tirade of bad language to being chased through the town and local woodland for an hour by a family of rugby players.
Funnily enough we never did go back to plunder the rugby house.

Personal privacy matters.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby Moriarty » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:00 am

rodderss wrote:When we were kids and plundering apples in peoples gardens funnily enough nobody came out and said lads be careful with those apples they are cooking apples you will end up with a sore stomach.

No,it ranged from a tirade of bad language to being chased through the town and local woodland for an hour by a family of rugby players.
Funnily enough we never did go back to plunder the rugby house.

Personal privacy matters.


It does, and the curtilage of private properties should be respected.

If those adults chased children around using abusive language for foraging on ground they had a right to be on they might have found that their uncivil behaviour had consequences.

Extending one's claimed curtilage beyond what one owns being the point under discussion.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby Navvarr » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:25 am

rodderss wrote:When we were kids and plundering apples in peoples gardens funnily enough nobody came out and said lads be careful with those apples they are cooking apples you will end up with a sore stomach.

No,it ranged from a tirade of bad language to being chased through the town and local woodland for an hour by a family of rugby players.
Funnily enough we never did go back to plunder the rugby house.

Personal privacy matters.



Absolutely nothing to do with what's actually happening - folks are walking past the homeowners house- he doesn't like that.

He's come out swinging, quoting 'the law' telling everyone they're no right to be on the road passing his house and been found out on quite a number of points to be 'stretching the truth'.

Bottom line is that a few walkers passing by your house is no reason to claim your privacy is being abused and resulted in a report to the Stirling Council Access Officer who has agreed that he's not acting in a reasonable manner to people minding their own business walking past his house.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby Sunset tripper » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:53 am

Rodders, of course personal privacy matters, but not at the expense of all others being banned from places they are perfectly entitled to be. If a minority are breaching privacy laws, whatever they are, fair enough deal with that but saying everyone should be banned from sighting distance of your property is not on. Some nutter staring in your window or stealing your apples is just as disconcerting for folk in the cities as it is for rural folk, possibly even moreso.

BigTed wrote:How it should be done.

Image

The path into Glen Feshie formerly ran right past the house whose chimneys are visible ahead. Now rerouted and clearly signposted. The new route is possibly fractionally longer but any extra distance is outweighed by the fact it is flatter than the old route past the house. What you call a win/win.



I'm not sure what's going on at Achlean there but, at first glance, I find that diversion sign a bit cheeky. I'm pretty sure the road past that sign is a public road and you are perfectly entitled to drive on it, never mind walk it. Possibly some very good reason for the bypass path but personal privacy certainly isn't a reasonable excuse there.

It's about 4 years since I was last at Achlean on a trip across the plateau to Tom Dubh & Cairntoul. At that time there was a rough sign at that point that said Carn Ban Mor (I think) which was fine because that was the way I was going. I' ve been up there often and never saw a problem with walking past the farm to go further up Glenfeshie. I don't have any real problem with using the bypass but just a bit curious what it's all about. I might go up and have a look, a lot of good work has been done up in that area more recently and I'm due a visit anyway.

I just had a look at the route maps, and the walkhighlands routes are using that bypass away from the farm also.

Interesting :D
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby al78 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:09 am

BigTed wrote:How it should be done.

The path into Glen Feshie formerly ran right past the house whose chimneys are visible ahead. Now rerouted and clearly signposted. The new route is possibly fractionally longer but any extra distance is outweighed by the fact it is flatter than the old route past the house. What you call a win/win.

The solution for the the householder in this thread would be for a new gate to be installed giving access to the track from Stockiemuir Road 100m east of his house along with a couple of signposts.

Or alternatively live and let live.


I remember that well. I was surprised to come across that signpost so soon from the car park as on my OS map, it looked like the path up to Carn Ban Mor started literally at the farmhouse. It is a good path and a quick way to gain access to the plateau.
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Re: Right to roam v Private Road

Postby BigTed » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:30 am

Sunset tripper wrote:I just had a look at the route maps, and the walkhighlands routes are using that bypass away from the farm also.

Interesting :D


Of course the road past the sign is public but it finishes at the house 50 yards way. Not a huge loss.

The new path is a quality diversion. An almost flat graded gravel path has been put in place. Not like some I have seen where you are just sent off through the bog round the garden fence of the big house. I have no issue with minor diversions when properly built. When the fence is reached at the entrance to Glen Feshie estate there is a welcome sign.

Of course they are the gold standard in responsible land management. The recovery of the natural woodlands after the big deer cull has been astounding. i've been visiting the Feshie since the 1970s. Back then it was a bit of a desert with the old grandfather pines hanging on but nothing on the forest floor. For example you could stand at the door of the bothy and look across to the big house half a mile away. Now the bothy sits surrounded by new growth pine, birch, juniper etc. You don't see it until within 100 yards.


Having used both the old version and the new I have no complaints here. In fact the only waste of time is rhat the car park is situated almost 10 minutes walk from the end of the road. As there is no reason on the ground I can only presume the householder at Auchlean lobbied to get it a bit further from the house. But what's an extra 20minutes on a 5 or 6 hour day?

Edit. I plotted the old route and new route on a mapping site, My best guess is the new path adds 50M distance while being flatter.
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