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The benefits of bright clothing

Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby AJ01 » Tue May 04, 2021 9:57 am

This discussion has given me an idea that perhaps there could be a thread permanently available just for suggestions about safety equipment that people have found useful, or heard about. For example, there is a thread currently on the second page of the Gear & Equipment Forum about choosing Personal Locator Beacons. I had never heard about them or their potential usefulness for hillwalkers until yesterday when I read the thread. I don't think I'm going to get one, but it was very interesting and helpful to know about them so that I could make an informed decision whether or not to take one with me in the hills.

I guess that the appropriate place would be the Gear Forum, but I don't know whether this site has the functionality to 'sticky' individual threads at the top of the list, as other forum sites do, and as I'm still new here I'm a bit hesitant to take this idea further myself. Perhaps one of the 'old hands' on here might like to do so if this idea is thought to be worthwhile - maybe Paul W might consider it?

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Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby simon-b » Tue May 04, 2021 12:17 pm

dav2930 wrote:As for Bear Grylls, I stopped using him as my role model ( :wink: ) when I saw him on tv selecting an anchor to abseil from; he had the choice between a sturdy tree and a sapling and he chose the sapling because he thought it would make it "more exciting" for himself and his celebrity charge (I forget who that was now). What a p*****k, I thought. :lol:

Quite fun when he had Roger Federer launch a tennis ball, climbing rope attached, with a racquet at an out of reach anchor point, though (not that I'd try it)
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Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby davekeiller » Tue May 04, 2021 1:39 pm

@Simon-b what debate? The original post was an observation that in the reports on a couple of recent rescues it was mentioned that the rescuers said that it was quicker and easier to find the casualties in bright red jackets than the ones in dark jackets.
This is something that people have been saying for years, and seems to have been posted as a reminder of something most of us already know and as something to think about for people new to hillwalking. It quickly degenerated into personal criticism of Heather Morning and lots of ranting about people not wanting to be dictated to when no one was actually trying to dictate to anyone.
We're all adults, and people can wear whatever they like on the hills, but it might be wise to bear in mind that if you wear colours that blend in with the background then this will make you harder to find should you need rescuing.
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Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby simon-b » Tue May 04, 2021 2:48 pm

davekeiller wrote:@Simon-b what debate? The original post was an observation that in the reports on a couple of recent rescues it was mentioned that the rescuers said that it was quicker and easier to find the casualties in bright red jackets than the ones in dark jackets.
This is something that people have been saying for years, and seems to have been posted as a reminder of something most of us already know and as something to think about for people new to hillwalking. It quickly degenerated into personal criticism of Heather Morning and lots of ranting about people not wanting to be dictated to when no one was actually trying to dictate to anyone.
We're all adults, and people can wear whatever they like on the hills, but it might be wise to bear in mind that if you wear colours that blend in with the background then this will make you harder to find should you need rescuing.

I agree, Dave, the orginal post does demonstrate the definite benefits of bright clothing in terms of safety, nobody is debating that. But isn't also OK for people to contribute to the discussion with alternative views about colours worn on mountains, to provide a balance of opinions? As for Heather Morning herself, people I know who have actually worked with her say she's a very competent mountaineer and guide.
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Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby Chris Henshall » Tue May 04, 2021 5:08 pm

Dear Dave,
Sorry to have caused annoyance. My initial response was to the statement that, "I'm inclined to agree with HM that red or orange should be mandatory on the hills." - something, I'm afraid, with which I still disagree.
That said, I'd be happy to defend anyone's right to disagree with me, even if I thought that their arguments were wide of the mark. As to Heather Morning, I have no idea who she is and, apart from her reported views on the desirability of making hill-goers wear orange, I have no reason to doubt either her abilities as an instructor or, indeed, her views on anything else.
No offence to anyone but I'm going to continue wandering around inconspicuously dressed, albeit with a big orange bivi bag in the bottom of my rucksack. I will, though, be camming up when the BMC or Mountaineering Scotland start telling me that it is mandatory to wear orange. Like I say, it'd be the thin end of an Orwellian wedge that will see everyone obliged to carry colour coded fluorescent rucksack covers for different certified levels of competence which they should display at all times so that a network of drone-mounted cameras guided by artificial intelligence can assess the likely demand for rescue teams during busy weekends on the Ben! (Just in case anyone truly believes that I've lost it and got things wildly out of proportion, that is hyperbole.)
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Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby davekeiller » Tue May 04, 2021 6:00 pm

@Chris I think the original comment by Heather Morning has been taken somewhat out of context. If she said it at all, it will have been a light-hearted remark in a talk on keeping safe in the outdoors. It will probably have come after a story of a mountain rescue where someone was much easier to find because their jacket stood out against the background. It's not hard to put her name into google and find pictures of her climbing in jackets that aren't red or orange, so it's clear that she's not seriously proposing to ban people from the hills unless they wear certain colours.

I don't think it was particularly helpful of someone to dredge up an old walk report which criticised the behaviour of a mountaineering instructor who it is implied was HM, especially as it may have been someone entirely different. The thing I object to is the personal comments aimed at her. Whilst I'm sure she's got a thick enough skin that she's not particularly worried by a couple of ill-informed comments on here, it's not in any way constructive and simply detracts from the discussion.
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Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby simon-b » Tue May 04, 2021 7:31 pm

davekeiller wrote: I think the original comment by Heather Morning has been taken somewhat out of context. If she said it at all, it will have been a light-hearted remark in a talk on keeping safe in the outdoors.

In that case, you could be right, Dave. Perhaps she felt the need to assert her opinion because she knew fellow professionals had different views, rather than being condescending to non-professionals.

From the book: Hillwalking, Mountain Leader Handbooks Volume 1, Steve Long wrote (quote):-

"Other, less obvious but still significant behaviours that detract from the sense of wildness in the hills are the creation of fire rings, stone circles where tent pegs have been weighted down, walking in large groups, and using brightly coloured clothes and tents. It is astonishing how a green tent is all but invisible even at close range whereas an orange one stands out like a beacon."

So both Heather Morning and Steve Long are entitled to their respective professional opinions, and I fail to see why it's unhelpful to this thread to draw attention to both. Absolutely I agree people new to hillwalking benefit from the advice of experienced professionals, and those of us who are experienced can do well by being ready to re-evaluate our own opinions sometimes. To sum up, different professionals have different views and nobody has a monopoly on the best advice.
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Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby davekeiller » Tue May 04, 2021 9:20 pm

It detracts from the discussion when people's comments are taken out of context to make it appear that they hold views that they don't, or that they disagree with each other when they probably don't.

I've read Steve Long's book. He doesn't specifically argue for or against particular colours of clothing, but he does note that there's a balance to be struck between being visible when you want to be seen and being subtle to preserve the sense of wildness in summer hillwalking.

I've also been to one of Heather's winter safety talks. It was a few years ago, but she probably suggested that a red or orange jacket would make you more visible should you get into difficulty in winter conditions and need rescuing. She may have joked that if she had her way then she'd ban black jackets and make sure that kit was only available in orange or red, but it was just that. A joke.

Viewed in context, I don't think they're actually disagreeing with each other because they're talking about different things. Heather was giving advice to people who had chosen to attend an organised event, and not in any way attempting to dictate what people can or can't do or wear.
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Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby simon-b » Tue May 04, 2021 10:24 pm

davekeiller wrote:It detracts from the discussion when people's comments are taken out of context to make it appear that they hold views that they don't, or that they disagree with each other when they probably don't.

I've read Steve Long's book. He doesn't specifically argue for or against particular colours of clothing, but he does note that there's a balance to be struck between being visible when you want to be seen and being subtle to preserve the sense of wildness in summer hillwalking.

I've also been to one of Heather's winter safety talks. It was a few years ago, but she probably suggested that a red or orange jacket would make you more visible should you get into difficulty in winter conditions and need rescuing. She may have joked that if she had her way then she'd ban black jackets and make sure that kit was only available in orange or red, but it was just that. A joke.

Viewed in context, I don't think they're actually disagreeing with each other because they're talking about different things. Heather was giving advice to people who had chosen to attend an organised event, and not in any way attempting to dictate what people can or can't do or wear.

So, viewed in context, I don't think we are disagreeing with each other either! The way you interpret Steve Long's view is what I was thinking anyway.
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Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby Essan » Wed May 05, 2021 8:21 am

Personally, I usually carry a lightweight fluorescent safety vest in the bottom of my sack, just in case of the remote possibility I actually want someone to see me. Otherwise it's black trousers, black top, black waterproof and black rucksack. Or, occasionally, something in dark grey or dark green.

However, if everyone else wore bright orange I would at least be able to see and avoid you :P
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Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby simon-b » Wed May 05, 2021 12:44 pm

I think you'd see this one, Essan. A classic from long before I'd read the Steve Long book, I found still tucked away in a cupboard:

IMG_6979.JPG


Ideal colour for being rescued in while it streams with condensation.
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Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby MusicalHiker » Thu May 06, 2021 9:07 am

Interesting topic- my current Paramo jacket is bright blue because it was £50 off, apparently not a popular colour because it shows the dirt so easily... but I usually walk alone and so I have always thought it was safer anyway, in case I need to be spotted. As far as I understand, the wildlife doesn't see colour the same as us and many birds don't notice the difference.... I also have a bright orange rucksack cover which could be used in an emergency....
IMG_2025.jpg
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Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby gld73 » Thu May 06, 2021 12:19 pm

Yes, Heather's comment was done light heartedly, not a serious suggestion on legally mandated jacket colours. I didn't realise some people would take it so literally!
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Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby simon-b » Thu May 06, 2021 12:55 pm

MusicalHiker wrote:Interesting topic- my current Paramo jacket is bright blue because it was £50 off, apparently not a popular colour because it shows the dirt so easily... but I usually walk alone and so I have always thought it was safer anyway, in case I need to be spotted. As far as I understand, the wildlife doesn't see colour the same as us and many birds don't notice the difference.... I also have a bright orange rucksack cover which could be used in an emergency....
IMG_2025.jpg

More good points, MH. Sometimes choice is governed by what's available at the time, as well as what's affordable. And regarding camouflage, some animals identify things by movement rather than shape or colour.

gld73, your original post was definitely worth making. It's not unusual for these threads to evolve! As far as light heartedness goes, some of the 'opposite and equal reactions' to certain comments were also humour by exaggeration :D
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Re: The benefits of bright clothing

Postby Bonzo » Thu May 06, 2021 2:26 pm

I've always purchased any jacket\waterproof based on its comfort\fit\waterproofing qualities rather than colour but always thought that it's an added bonus if it comes in a bright colour.

If the jacket\waterproof type I want is available in multiple colours I go for red\yellow. If it's only available in black\dark green then so be it.
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