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For the record -

Re: For the record -

Postby Sgurr » Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:56 pm

I live near a couple of beaches, and there are two very visible litter pickers in high vis jackets. I think this might encourage people to think "Well, it's someone's job". An ordinary member of the public who litter picks every evening, just because she can't bear to look at the beach as the visitors leave it, picks up BAGS of the stuff. Please don't wish more on the beaches, we have enough already.
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Re: For the record -

Postby lukemunrowalker » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:11 pm

To be fair, geologically speaking the timescales described in the OP's post wouldn't come close to tthe blink of an eye. If you dropped your phone on the mountain, it would mostly have turned to dust in 500 years, certainly by 5000 years, and the planet wouldn't even have noticed.

Having said that, I do agree with general idea of not leaving any litter behind, even being aware of the complete lack of harm our litter does to a mountain littering is still a very shitty thing to do, especially if you're littering were other people will see your garbage. I usually bag out any litter I find if I can, I once spent around an hour clearing up a total bombsite someone left behind, firepit, beer cans, food packaging etc. I only mention that in case anyone gets the wrong idea. I guess I tidied it up because seeing it **** me off, and I did it so no other walkers would have their mood lowered by the mess.

It is obvious however that the 'leave no trace' thing has been a bit sullied by the same types that sully liberal justice movements, ie twitter warriors, the types who just love a moral stick to wave about to beat people into feeling guilty for no real reason

Never leave anything behind that can harm wildlife, I hear that there is a calamity in the making due to discarded face masks, but If your talking about eating an apple, then you don't have to beat yourself up about packing out the core - just don't be a dick and throw it right on the path. chuck it somewhere out of sight.

Oh, on the subject of food, here is a little tip, if you are somewhere that feels as if there might be guardian spirits or faeries, if you want to show them some respect, and maybe even ask for safe passage, then a small bite of 'human food' is an acceptable offering, or so it is said.
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Re: For the record -

Postby Robert Haynes » Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:51 am

lukemunrowalker wrote:Never leave anything behind that can harm wildlife, I hear that there is a calamity in the making due to discarded face masks, but If your talking about eating an apple, then you don't have to beat yourself up about packing out the core - just don't be a dick and throw it right on the path. chuck it somewhere out of sight.

The issue here is that a single apple core might be okay, ecologically speaking, but a large number isn't. If everyone climbing Ben Lomond left their apple cores behind, that would be fairly substantial.

In effect, by leaving food up on the hills you're feeding the wildlife, and mostly scavengers like rats and gulls. If there's an appreciable number of apple cores and sandwich crusts up there, then scavenger populations will increase. Once they've run out of leftover human food, they'll look around for anything else they can eat. Which may well include raiding birds nests and the like.
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Re: For the record -

Postby Giant Stoneater » Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:40 am

Robert Haynes wrote:
lukemunrowalker wrote:Never leave anything behind that can harm wildlife, I hear that there is a calamity in the making due to discarded face masks, but If your talking about eating an apple, then you don't have to beat yourself up about packing out the core - just don't be a dick and throw it right on the path. chuck it somewhere out of sight.

The issue here is that a single apple core might be okay, ecologically speaking, but a large number isn't. If everyone climbing Ben Lomond left their apple cores behind, that would be fairly substantial.

In effect, by leaving food up on the hills you're feeding the wildlife, and mostly scavengers like rats and gulls. If there's an appreciable number of apple cores and sandwich crusts up there, then scavenger populations will increase. Once they've run out of leftover human food, they'll look around for anything else they can eat. Which may well include raiding birds nests and the like.


Depending on where it is thrown on the hill and the time of year apple cores have seeds which could germinate,highly unlikely but there is always a possibility, you never know with the climate change that is happening, all it would take is one freak year of warm weather.
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Re: For the record -

Postby CharlesT » Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:21 am

All may be avoided by following Tom Sawyer's dictum "...there ain't going to be no core" 😁
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Re: For the record -

Postby Giant Stoneater » Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:37 am

CharlesT wrote:All may be avoided by following Tom Sawyer's dictum "...there ain't going to be no core" 😁


My 5 year old grandson swears by Sawyer's dictum there is definitely no core.
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Re: For the record -

Postby Girl Outdoors » Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:54 am

Used shotgun cartridges are what **** me off!
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Re: For the record -

Postby gman » Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:56 am

Reading the responses to the OP's accusation, I think it's safe to say that WH forum users are not the problem here and we are fully aware of the decomposition rates of various fruits and vegetables. It's possible, though, that the elephant in the room is the fuel we all burn on journeys to the hills and the long term effect this will have on the mountain environment (thought I'd get on the virtue signalling bandwagon :lol:). But we all know the real culprit - the phantom poo bandit who always leaves a fresh present on the second belay ledge of Agag's! WHY???!!!
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Re: For the record -

Postby Sgurr » Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:40 pm

gman wrote:. But we all know the real culprit - the phantom poo bandit who always leaves a fresh present on the second belay ledge of Agag's! WHY???!!!


Just out of interest, have you reached the level of enlightenment in some system or other which allows you to control your bowels all the time, even in circumstances of fear? If so, what is that system, we could all benefit from it. Or are you just commenting on his/her lack of etiquette in failing to take a dog poo bag?
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Re: For the record -

Postby matt_outandabout » Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:31 pm

the OP's accusation

I don't think I made any accusation. I made a point of view, badly it seemed, over something that is a growing issue in my view. I do agree this audience is the wrong one, although there is one person on the thread who has been bold enough to offer a change in their practice and one bold enough to tell everyone they will continue to lob things.

I do agree our fossil-fuelled travel, plastic bag clothes and general wear on the hills is an issue.

Happy to wind someone else up about those topics too with a badly worded but well-meaning post...? All good apart from the log in my eye in the shape of a hulking Volvo estate I use as my fossil fuel transport of choice...
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Re: For the record -

Postby denfinella » Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:48 pm

I don't think you're speaking to the wrong audience. It was a similar post a few years ago that made me stop throwing away banana skins (well away from the path), having been ignorant of the impact before then.
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Re: For the record -

Postby Glengavel » Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:25 am

I still throw away apple cores but I'm starting to reconsider.
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Re: For the record -

Postby Avocetboy » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:54 am

Apple cores, banana skins, egg shells, tampons, sh*t...Its all rubbish, None if it should be left on the hills or anywhere else other than a bin. It's unsightly litter
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Re: For the record -

Postby Moriarty » Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:08 pm

Lightfoot2017 wrote:I'll continue to throw my apple cores into the grass knowing, not only am I providing a nutritious novel tidbit for birds or mice; MODERATOR: Personal attack removed


Translation: "I reject the principles of Leave no Trace, in no small part because I enjoy thinking that it will cause some people distress".

Certainly quite an individual stance on a site like this to report that you are happy to throw things away while walking. As for the impact on others, do you think it's only MODERATOR: Personal attack removed/people who hold a different view from you who will be upset? Just asking, not sure whether a wider impact would be more or less enjoyable for you.


Lightfoot2017 wrote:And "for the record".... I'm as diligent and as conscientious a walker as the next person. I too collect the litter of inconsiderate walkers and have done for over 30 yrs. I just don't like being lectured to in that tone by anyone.

I suggest you reflect upon how your virtue-signalling comes across next time before you hit Send.


Well done, I admire self-deprecating irony.

For my part, if I carry it in I carry it out.

Partly that's about acknowledging that small actions, repeated across many visitors has a high impact, so my small action isn't justifiable by it's size.

Partly that's about the slow decay issues that are present in higher altitude environments.

Partly that's about the issue of adding unnatural nutrients to nutrient poor environments with the subsequent potential shifts in flora and fauna.

But mainly that is about respect for people coming after me - I leave places as close as I can to how I found them, I imagine that is how people following might appreciate finding them. That is my interpretation of what Leave No Trace means and therefore that is my policy.
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Re: For the record -

Postby Lightfoot2017 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:43 pm

Moriarty wrote:
Lightfoot2017 wrote:I'll continue to throw my apple cores into the grass knowing, not only am I providing a nutritious novel tidbit for birds or mice; I'm also MODERATOR: Personal attack removed.


Translation: "I reject the principles of Leave no Trace, in no small part because I enjoy thinking that it will cause some people distress".

Certainly quite an individual stance on a site like this to report that you are happy to throw things away while walking. As for the impact on others, do you think it's onlyMODERATOR: Personal attack removed/people who hold a different view from you who will be upset? Just asking, not sure whether a wider impact would be more or less enjoyable for you.


Lightfoot2017 wrote:And "for the record".... I'm as diligent and as conscientious a walker as the next person. I too collect the litter of inconsiderate walkers and have done for over 30 yrs. I just don't like being lectured to in that tone by anyone.

I suggest you reflect upon how your virtue-signalling comes across next time before you hit Send.


Well done, I admire self-deprecating irony.

For my part, if I carry it in I carry it out.

Partly that's about acknowledging that small actions, repeated across many visitors has a high impact, so my small action isn't justifiable by it's size.

Partly that's about the slow decay issues that are present in higher altitude environments.

Partly that's about the issue of adding unnatural nutrients to nutrient poor environments with the subsequent potential shifts in flora and fauna.

But mainly that is about respect for people coming after me - I leave places as close as I can to how I found them, I imagine that is how people following might appreciate finding them. That is my interpretation of what Leave No Trace means and therefore that is my policy.


:wink:
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