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The use of the assisted bikes on the hills.

Re: The use of the assisted bikes on the hills.

Postby gaffr » Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:26 am

So now we have a Derny that is quiet and non polluting in contrast to the internal combustion ones used in previous Games that I watched. :)
I think what I was trying to say that the present Derny electric type of assisted bike would be available to those who could afford it and maybe even venture into off road use and possibly into the hills. :lol: So quiet that you wouldn't know that it was in a place where maybe that it shouldn't be. :)
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Re: The use of the assisted bikes on the hills.

Postby davekeiller » Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:42 pm

It looks like access rights generally include bicycles in Scotland. Electrically assisted bikes are classed as bicycles for the purposes of road traffic law, so I assume the same access rights would apply.
If, on the other hand, it's an electric motorbike, then it's classed as a motorised vehicle and access rights do not apply.

In other words, if the power is less than 250W, top speed with electrical assistance is 25km/h or less and it's pedal assist only then it's a bike and you can take it anywhere you can take a pedal bike. If any or all of those are not met, then it's a motorbike and can only be used with the landowner's permission.

Whether it would be advisable to take an e-bike is another matter, and one might argue that taking one to some places is not "responsible access".
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Re: The use of the assisted bikes on the hills.

Postby AyrshireAlps » Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:49 pm

Spot on Dave.
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Re: The use of the assisted bikes on the hills.

Postby Skyelines » Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:48 pm

Just had a look on Amazon and one can buy a variety of Chinese made e-bikes with wide section tyres with motors of 500w and greater for under £2,000. Some have twist grip throttles and fully electric modes which means they come under the moped/motor bike category for road use. In this case they would have to be type approved for use on British roads.
I'm guessing that there are some people buying these and using them off road in the mistaken belief that they are perfectly able to do this because "they have pedals", or maybe as they look for all intents and purposes like a normal "Fat Bike" (google it) perhaps they think that no one will notice.

With no effective way of monitoring this type of use there could be a problem developing, the extent of which remains to be seen.

I have no problem with the use of the pedal assisted, speed limited bikes being used, especially as the less able/older generation will be able to extend their outdoor activities. I suppose the bikes with the twist grip throttle could be designated as mobility vehicles for blue badge holders which might be a good idea and therefore would be acceptable under the access code.
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Re: The use of the assisted bikes on the hills.

Postby AyrshireAlps » Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:11 pm

The cheap motors and batteries that come with those wouldn't pull the weight of the bike up onto a hill tbh, the only reason an ebike can do it is when the power is used as an assist, in accordance with the law.

You'd be lucky to get 500' of ascent out of it, really lucky.

I had the full rhinns of kells to myself on the ebike today, absolutely magic, never seen a soul. :D
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Re: The use of the assisted bikes on the hills.

Postby gaffr » Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:17 am

Hello Ayrshirealps.....the only time that I have been in the area of the Rhinns of Kells was from the parking near Forrest Lodge to get to Corserine and its neighbour....on foot. :) Once clear of the forestry stuff not much of a path to reach the high ground that would be difficult ground with a bike? Of course there could be other ways to reach the higher ground here?
I recall that the high ground was plateau-like.
Regarding the better quality e bikes probably used by the guy providing the 'wind up' for the guys in the Kerin race. He looked like a middle aged person and quite relaxed on his 'sit up and beg bike' and having to wind up to the 50 kls. speed within a short distance before departing the cycle bowl to allow the sprinters to fight it out for the medals. Is it possible to get to this kind of speed on most of the e bikes :) when on my old off road bike I would reckon on a 40-45 Kls. when going down-hill on the right sort of surface. :)
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Re: The use of the assisted bikes on the hills.

Postby davekeiller » Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:20 am

@Gaffr, as two posts have pointed out, if it's an e-bike then the motor cuts out at 25km/h. It would be possible to go faster than this downhill with the assistance of gravity and the motor turned off (or by turning the motor off and pedalling fast, but you'd have to be really fit as the motor and battery are heavy).
If the motor takes it above this speed, then it's an electric motorbike and must be regulated accordingly.

To be honest, I doubt that the illegal ones will be much of a problem in the hills as I don't think they'd be able to cope off-road or have enough range.
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Re: The use of the assisted bikes on the hills.

Postby gaffr » Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:11 pm

Thanks for that Dave. I keep asking daft questions but it now something has got through.
Of course there is the miles/kilometre thing...25 mikes and 40 kls. For me a European the 40 kls will be the cut off for the e bike..... Just in this country?... And therefore the 50 kls per hr. on the velo track in Japan would not receive the cut out on the bike.
Special concession for bike events.?
Maybe not all countries have this regulation?
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Re: The use of the assisted bikes on the hills.

Postby gaffr » Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:27 pm

I am hopeless trying to reply to these on a mobile phone....misread and all the rest.
Instead of 25 mls.per hour I now read 25 kls.per hr. Or just 16 miles per hour in GB.
So I guess very controlled here....and still.I can't keep up with the new wave.:-)
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Re: The use of the assisted bikes on the hills.

Postby ChrisButch » Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:42 pm

That wattage limit and speed cutout regulation was EU-wide, and has continued unchanged (thus far at least) after Brexit. It doesn't apply elsewhere. The comparison with the track Dernys used for keirin isn't really relevant, since they aren't intended for road use.
Incidentally I share your curiosity about a bikeable (e- or without) route to and over the Rhinns if Kells. I've always had a soft spot for them, since they were my first ever proper ridgewalk - as part of a fortnight's trek across the Southern Uplands taking a route remarkably close to that which, a good few years later, somebody chose to call the Southern Uplands Way.
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Re: The use of the assisted bikes on the hills.

Postby davekeiller » Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:13 pm

I believe that @Chrisbutch is correct, and the speed and wattage limit was EU-wide and hasn't changed since Brexit.

The Keirin uses a Derny, which is a different thing entirely. It's only really going to be available from a specialist velodrome supplier, and only really suitable for velodrome use. They are specialist bits of kit for setting the pace in a race.
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Re: The use of the assisted bikes on the hills.

Postby AyrshireAlps » Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:39 pm

Gaffr/chrisbutch I parked at green well of Scotland, up through the mines, then straight up onto coran of portmark. Not an easy climb due to the long grass at this time of year, hiding the holes, but doesn't take too long to get up into shorter vegetation.

I was planning on just doing an out and back to Meaul summit, but it was such a nice day, and I've fancied the descent from Hennessys shelter down to the forest road for a while now, I wasn't disappointed.

Then various forest roads to get to craigcrocket, where I picked up a path back to carsphairn - you'll see it on os 1:25k, goes over bardennoch hill. 20 miles, 4000' of ascent, 3 hours. Wasn't rushing at that, nice day to take in the views into dungeon hills.
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Re: The use of the assisted bikes on the hills.

Postby gaffr » Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:01 am

Hello, Big day out Ayrshirealps on that round trip out and back to the area below Cairnsmore of Carsphairn. I think that I recall a big wall all the way to the top of that hill up from The green well of Scotland. Interesting attempting to follow your route and, I guess, imagining the difficulties of descending from the shelter into the deep green stuff to reach the forest where I had parked up when in the area to get to Corserine on foot. :) A fine day out for you on the velo.
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