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Stalking In Glen Lyon

Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby Senja » Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:28 pm

Horrid sign… full of exceptionalism. Not sure if I am comfortable with access only just tolerated as long as you are a munro bagger. Never done all four in a row btw.

I’m very cooperative re stalking, but not here.. they have spent over 30 years forfeiting any good will. Letter of the Law
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Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby Skyelines » Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:25 pm

The line in the notice that says "you are entering a legally protected conservation wilderness space" appears to be attempting to imply it is protected from you as the person walking into it.

However this is not quite as it seems, the area is a designated SSSI https://sitelink.nature.scot/site/322.

The citation is for botanical interest and the "operations requiring consent" apply to those activities carried out by the landowner not the casual visitor. So the site is legally protected from the landowner.

There is nothing in the designation that would prevent any responsible access to the whole area despite whatever the estate may say in regard to conservation.
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Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby WallaceJohnston » Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:23 pm

Paul Webster wrote:To be clear, we don't think Chesthill's approach to stalking restrictions, or access generally, complies with the Scottish Outdoor Access Code, but having just been to check the situation around the parking, thought I should post a bit of info here (will also update the route guide).

The clearway does not run for a huge distance. There is some parking just before the start (east end) of the clearway, just E of a wee telecoms building. There is a good deal more parking just beyond the west end of the clearway, in a layby on the S side of the road. Both would involve around a mile of road walking each way.


According to the information on P&KC's website it runs all the way from Fortingall to Bridge of Balgie, or is it defined differently somewhere else?

https://www.pkc.gov.uk/article/21821/Parking-restrictions-on-country-roads
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Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby Paul Webster » Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:31 pm

That is what I had thought previously.

I was going by the signs actually on site yesterday. These seem to indicate that the clearway starts at the telephone exchange and ends before the layby.
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Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby Paul Webster » Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:35 pm

This seems to confirm the signs, that responsible parking in spots mentioned should be OK:
https://www.tellmescotland.gov.uk/notices/perth-kinross/traffic/00000249822
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Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby malky_c » Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:40 pm

The PKC website is surprisingly vague about the extents of the clearway, but here is the plan that was lodged for it:
https://res.cloudinary.com/commonplace-digital-limited/image/upload/v1620295891/projects/noemi%20/Invervar_Glenlyon.pdf

The website link is here:
https://perthandkinrossvisitoradvice.commonplace.is/proposals/what-are-clearways-and-where-are-they-in-operation-across-the-area

This ties in with what Paul says above.
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Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby JuliaS » Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:10 am

I've browsed this forum for some time now but never really got around to joining until now that is. The reason being was reading this thread and it dawned on me that this is where we had a nasty experience. In short earlier this summer I experienced some harrassment while walking in this area. I think maybe I should make a formal complaint about what happened. Could someone please tell me who I should complain to along with any tips for filing a formal complaint. Thank you.
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Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby davekeiller » Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:29 pm

It depends a little on the nature of the harassment, but if it was of the "get off my land" variety, the person to complain to is the Access Officer at the relevant local authority, which I believe is Perth and Kinross.

If possible, give a detailed location, so that they can accurately determine who the landowner is, and what access rights apply.
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Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby Paul Webster » Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:24 am

The relevant access officer is Dave Stubbs, email him on dstubbs@pkc.gov.uk or phone 01738 475347

Might be worth copying in Davie Black at Mountaineering Scotland as he is looking into the car park closure too access@mountaineering.scot
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Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby JuliaS » Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:23 pm

davekeiller wrote:It depends a little on the nature of the harassment, but if it was of the "get off my land" variety, the person to complain to is the Access Officer at the relevant local authority, which I believe is Perth and Kinross.


Paul Webster wrote:The relevant access officer is Dave Stubbs, email him on d

Might be worth copying in Davie Black at Mountaineering Scotland as he is looking into the car park closure too


Thanks for the info.

The short story of what happened is this. I along with a friend had over several days in July walked from Kinloch Rannoch through to Glen Lyon. We camped at a couple of locations along the route. A very relaxing and destressing time to be honest until the very end that is. We were comming down somewhat east of Invervar having got rather off our original route plan. Not lost I should stress but off course and as such required some inovative navigation which was of little concern to us as we were going to phone and be met along Glen Lyon. Time was geting on and we came on to a rough track thet we followed down.

After a while a 4WD was comming up the track. We stood to side to let it pass expecting the usual smile and hand wave thanking us. Instead the driver stopped and leaned out of the window and asked us what we were doing?. I replied that we were walking down to Glen Lyon. He then told us that we should stick to the established route as posted in the car park and that we were not on it. We replied that we had not come from any car park (not familier it anyway) but had walked through. When we mentioned that we had camped we were told that was not permitted and that we should be off the hills by some time or other (cant remember exactly). I told him that what we had been doing was perfectly permissable under the access laws. He would have none of this and essentially accused us of damaging the environment, scaring birds and deer etc. Honestly thats rubbish, we'd seen no one and left zero trace of being up there. Obviously the conversation was going nowhere and we left with him watching us for a while before we were out of site. A stressfull end to a very pleasant couple of days.
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Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby davekeiller » Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:41 pm

The Chesthill estate seem to think that people should be off the hill by 7pm to avoid disturbing the hinds when they return to their young in the evening.
The fact that every other shooting estate in Scotland (more or less) don't take this view and think that wild camping is fine should probably tell you something about how valid this is. Even if it were true, the justification for deer stalking is supposed to be that deer numbers need to be controlled in order to prevent them becoming a pest, so one would think that disturbing them wouldn't be a bad thing.

Under the terms of the Land Reform (Scotland) Act, you were well within your rights to camp in the area. You were also well within your rights to use the track as a means of getting down to Glen Lyon.
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Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby Skyelines » Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:42 pm

It appears from what is reported in this thread and wording on the notice that the estate use in the car park that they are under the misapprehension that the SSSI designation on part of the estate gives them the right to control the access to the area.

This quote from Nature Scotland publication https://www.nature.scot/sites/default/files/2017-06/Publication%202011%20-%20Sites%20of%20Special%20Scientific%20Interest.pdf gives the case as it stands with regards to access.(Bold emphasis added)) This document is intended for landowners or occupiers that have an SSSI on their land.

Public access on to SSSIs
SSSI designation does not increase or reduce public rights to take
responsible access (as described in the Scottish Outdoor Access Code),
nor does it increase or reduce the expectation on owners and occupiers to
allow responsible access
.
It is an offence for any person, including visitors,
to intentionally or recklessly damage the natural features of an SSSI. Please
tell us if you have reason to believe any person is damaging the protected
natural features of your SSSI.
Many people, whether they realise it or not, visit areas designated as SSSIs
for a wide variety of activities without disturbing the natural features of the
sites. We are always happy to discuss enhanced access with owners and
occupiers where this would not harm the natural features of the site.
Where visitors’ activities or numbers do cause damage, we will be pleased
to discuss with you and others how this might be addressed.
Closure of an SSSI for conservation purposes
Local authorities may remove land, including that within an SSSI, from
access rights for up to five days or, with the confirmation of Scottish
Ministers, for up to two years.
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Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby sarahleslie1 » Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:52 pm

I’m getting a bit muddled with what we can and can’t do- so are they saying that the glen Lyon circuit is ok as long as we stick to the paths and park somewhere safe, but not to venture off the path? I was planning to go on a Sunday and do the circuit…
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Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby HalfManHalfTitanium » Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:24 pm

sarahleslie1 wrote:I’m getting a bit muddled with what we can and can’t do- so are they saying that the glen Lyon circuit is ok as long as we stick to the paths and park somewhere safe, but not to venture off the path? I was planning to go on a Sunday and do the circuit…


A couple of years ago, at this time of year, I contacted the estate with that exact question. Their answer was a bit ambiguous - yes I could go, but they’d prefer me not to. I raised the point about no stalking on Sundays, their answer was that they would prefer walkers to steer clear of the area from the end of August until October, on all days. I pointed out that this was at variance with the info on the “Heading to the Scottish Hills” website which said that Sundays were OK to walk this route. The estate said they would talk to that website with a view to ensuring consistent information (but didn’t tell me exactly what that information would be).

In short, a simple direct question turned into something complicated.

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Re: Stalking In Glen Lyon

Postby JuliaS » Sat Aug 28, 2021 10:17 am

Just to update. I have filed a written complaint about our harassment comming down into Glen Lyon with the access officer Dave Stubbs and CC'd to MS. I have also been in contact Ramblers Scotland who are very interested in the issue. They made the point that if everyone who find that their access rights are being restricted by this estate would file written complaints chances of reaching a resolution would increase. They request CC of correspondance as well. RS believe very few harrasments are actually reported.
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