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Bothies and the CWT

Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby Booga » Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:00 am

HalfManHalfTitanium wrote:Sorry this is a long post. Trying to put my thoughts together in an attempt to get to the heart of this problem.

First observation: I've hardly ever seen litter in Europe, whether in cities or on the mountains.

One of many cultural differences. Another cultural difference is that if the In Pin was in Europe, there might well be an iron ladder bolted to it.

My wife used to live in Germany. If someone drops litter, they will be told off by (a) their parents (b) their friends or (c) every passer-by. Everyone learns from a young age that it is a no-no. German muggers probably dispose of victims' purses and wallets in litter bins.

Overall, we don't have that same approach in Britain. So while we would not expect the sort of people who do the CWT to be the stereotypical "litter lout", we should not be totally surprised either, when a national problem reaches Glen Dessarry and its ranks of commercial conifers. It is easy to label a group and blame them; harder to find solutions that work.

Samantha Harding, Director of the Campaign to Protect Rural England, said “The crux of the problem is that all sorts of people litter all sorts of items for all sorts of reasons”. Ah, so now we know.

I think that deep down there is something in our culture, about our relationship with the world around us. I am distrustful of surveys, but it was interesting to see yesterday the results of a Europe-wide survey about how connected people feel to nature. Of course, the UK came bottom.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/23/britain-ranks-bottom-in-europe-for-nature-connectiveness

The Guardian article about the survey findings said "While high levels of urban residents did not necessarily mean a weaker connection with nature, more decisive negative influences on nature connection were higher average incomes and smartphone ownership."

But again, that's just scratching the surface. Smartphone ownership, for example, is a symptom, not a cause, of a society that chooses to have a closer relationship with Facebook than with the plants and animals living in our own gardens.

Last year, I joined Instagram. I didn't really know what it was, but I could see it enabled me to post up a photo every day, like Harvey Keitel in the film Smoke. A record of something nice I'd seen - a flower, a tree etc.

I hadn't reckoned on the untamed power of the Internet. Soon I had 700 Followers, and hundred of Likes for every photo. So I felt obliged to look at and Like photos posted by my Followers.

What I saw was really striking.

I had Followers in Britain, but also other parts of the world - Canada and the States, Brazil, Argentina and Chile, and lots in Europe (especially eastern Europe and Scandinavia) and Japan. There was a stark difference between the British photos and all the others.

The "rest of the world" photos were devoid of people. They were of hills, rivers, coast, plants and animals. You could look at such photos and meditate. I felt that I was seeing the world through others' eyes, and feeling the contemplative closeness of their relationship with nature.

The British photos, on the other hand, always showed the person. And they were always doing something - completing a long distance trail, climbing a mountain, wild camping, wild swimming, "Doing the North Coast 500" (whatever that is).

Nothing wrong with any of that! I post the occasional summit selfie myself! - and my TRs on WH are obviously a log of my outdoor activities.

Rather, it was the almost complete lack, in the British images, of those contemplative photos, those quiet moments of not doing anything, just being with nature.

Perhaps a higher percentage of British people see the natural world as "out there" - separate from us. When we go into it, we take selfies to show our friends where we have been. the enjoyment of being outdoors is to be found in the ability to tell people about it. "Look at me, in the wilderness!".

When you feel like that, maybe it is easy to drop a piece of plastic packaging. But if you actually feel a connection to the landscape around you, you wouldn't do it - any more than you would leave litter in a friend's home.

Just exploring an idea. We will never find a solution if we don't understand the problem.


Some interesting observations here, similar to thoughts I've been having for a while.

I wonder if the disconnect that society seems to have from the natural world means that people treat the great outdoors like they do most other forms of entertainment, viewing themselves as consumers and customers rather than something they are a part of or a community they are involved in, and therefore something they have no more responsibility for than when they are consuming media, going to the shops, cinema or an organised event etc? In many other leisure activities it can be easy for a person to get used to just turning up to something that's provided for them, having fun, going home and expecting someone else to tidy up after them. When I was involved with a radio control car club there was always a very small group of us who got involved running and maintaining things while many drivers were happy to just turn up, let their kids run riot, say "great evening, thanks lads!" as they walked out the door leaving their litter behind then post about their achievements on social media (sound familiar?)

I once met some teenagers on their first bothy stay and one of them asked where the bin was, I told him he had to carry everything out with him and he happily accepted this (they were pretty good lads, venture scouts) but it's an easy misconception to have when most of our modern lives are spent presuming there will be a bin somewhere and that someone empties it.

“The crux of the problem is that all sorts of people litter all sorts of items for all sorts of reasons” is true, all ages, all classes, through naivety or selfishness. We can educate people who genuinely presume the hills and bothies have a bin man but perhaps a change in societies views towards our relationship with the outdoors/leisure activities is also needed.

I once saw a sign saying something like "If we all love Scotland then who's leaving all the litter?" and I think about it a lot, it's the equivalent of kids leaving rubbish in their own local playground (which also happens) wether it's locals doing it to their own area or visitors who go there because they like the place. For a nation/nations that often say we're proud of where we come from (Britain/Scotland/England etc) we seem to do a good job of expecting others to look after it.
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Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby al78 » Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:54 pm

I like the banner on this site: "Don't be a tosser, leave no trace". Bluntly gets the point across.

I'm not convinced Europe is any better when it comes to littering, but I wonder if the UK mentality is more aligned with the U.S. than Europe, and that people choose to live like Americans rather than Europeans. Right wing, insular, ego-centric, entitled, lacking situational awareness, externalising costs if they can get away with it, mission in life to do as little physical activity as possible. From the comments I see on YouTube and the like, American society gives me the impression of being highly dystopic, and I fear the UK is trying to catch up with them. Neo-liberal capitalism of course does not value nature for itself, only for the resources it provides that can be exploited, and environmental damage does not appear on the balance sheet, it is an externalised cost dumped on others, so not too surprising individuals adopt the same philosophy.
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Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby Sgurr » Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:28 pm

Walked the West Highland Way this April and thought there was very little litter, but that might be that I just wasn't looking for it. A GP followed behind with a bag and litter pickers, and his eyes were obviously attuned to the smallest piece, and apparently he found LOADS of it along the way. Some volunteers go out and pick it up in the course of checking the bridges etc. are OK. None that I can recall in the Strathan bothy on the Cape |Wrath Trail, but maybe that is one people normally leapfrog. and was in 2016.
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Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby ScotFinn65 » Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:55 pm

al78 wrote:I like the banner on this site: "Don't be a tosser, leave no trace". Bluntly gets the point across.

I'm not convinced Europe is any better when it comes to littering, but I wonder if the UK mentality is more aligned with the U.S. than Europe, and that people choose to live like Americans rather than Europeans. Right wing, insular, ego-centric, entitled, lacking situational awareness, externalising costs if they can get away with it, mission in life to do as little physical activity as possible. From the comments I see on YouTube and the like, American society gives me the impression of being highly dystopic, and I fear the UK is trying to catch up with them. Neo-liberal capitalism of course does not value nature for itself, only for the resources it provides that can be exploited, and environmental damage does not appear on the balance sheet, it is an externalised cost dumped on others, so not too surprising individuals adopt the same philosophy.


I live in Finland and can guarantee you that the attitude to littering is significantly different to that in the U.K. .

There is more of an acceptance that not littering is everyone's responsibility and not looking for someone else to clean up behind you.

The difference in larger towns in the two countries is marked, as is the countryside treatment.

There is a culture difference where is is "ok" to throw away a crisp packet to coke can in Scotland and ,"what's the big problem" attitude of many kids for several generations now. Come and see the streets in the town where l live and you will be shocked how clean it is compared to Scotland.

Almost zero level of littering and dog waste fouling up the pavements.

I can't offer any solution, except to say that cultural/mindset changes are hardest to achieve and l suspect that it will take about 3 generations. . . . . once it has been widely accepted to start the change. There-in lies the problem.

Change only of occurs once there is enough dissatisfaction with the status quo. As mentioned above, too many people are still in the mindset of "what's the problem". So l fear l will never see true change :?
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Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby Sunset tripper » Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:35 pm

Littering in Scotland is nowhere near as bad as it was in the past and the dog crap situation has vastly improved. I'm not sure why littering is worse than in europe. I remember my first visit to Paris and it was a dirty place but has cleaned up remarkably. In Europe public services are better in general. In this country there seems to be campaign to dessimate the public services like the railways the NHS and the councils. Overflowing bins is a major issue because there is no one to empty them. In a perfect world everyone would take all there stuff home but that obviously isn't working.

Naples is the most littered city I have visited in the western first world. Miles worse than anything in Scotland and it is generally accepted that's the way it is due to corruption and no investment in the services a bit like the UK in a smaller scale.

Third world countries are by far the worst for litter problems and I guess we are just closer to that situation and mindset than our European neighbours.

No excuse for it though especially in bothies where you would expect a better attitude. :?
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Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby Ewen1966 » Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:50 pm

Come to Ireland. Over the years I have encountered fly tipping in glens, a forestry road with hundreds of pampers the foxes had ripped, roadside wild campsites covered in faeces and old tents and gear and, worryingly, smouldering campfires on Coilte land. That instance some eejit had thought cans could be burnt. A gust of wind an whoosh it would have started again. My wife and I ferried water up in a dry bag to put it out.
Just this week the IMC was posting on Instagram the rubbish left at Carrauntoohill and other peaks. Nut shell, orange peel, banana skins, all left by hillwalkers who mistakenly think it will biodegrade in a few days.... Nope.
I can honestly say that Scotland is tidier than Ireland. We also noticed how dirty Dublin is compared to most French towns, now the ferry docks in Dublin.
One good thing is the Gardaí are stopping white vans to try to stop flytipping.
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Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby prog99 » Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:27 pm

Ewen1966 wrote:Come to Ireland. Over the years I have encountered fly tipping in glens, a forestry road w.

I’m just not long back. Either there’s a cleanup just happened or we got lucky as we thought all the hills were very litter free.
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Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby Ewen1966 » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:30 pm

prog99 wrote:
Ewen1966 wrote:Come to Ireland. Over the years I have encountered fly tipping in glens, a forestry road w.

I’m just not long back. Either there’s a cleanup just happened or we got lucky as we thought all the hills were very litter free.



It isn't so much the hills. It is the glens near where you get people wild camping to get a **** up and an easy place for the flytippers. A lot of us carry the peel and bottles off the hills.
Head along the military road through Wicklow or Hollywood to Glenda lough and you will come across abandoned gear in the woods etc.
The National park tries to police it but there are some areas that are hit every year.
You should have seen last bank holiday and that was when it was soaking. A bit more good weather and mthe numpties will be out with their disposable gear.
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Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby Paul Webster » Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:51 pm

I actually think most of Scotland is looking much better this year than the immediate post-lockdown. To my mind bothies are in a much better state today than say 25 years ago when I was first using them.

Saw next to no litter all round the NC500 this year (plenty of farm rubbish) and hills clear. Verges near towns in Scotland a different story - horrendous on the verges into Leven in Fife last week. Laybys near Grantown always have rubbish from workmen too - wonder if people have a different mentality when "at work"? It's really really hard to try to put a new message across to locals on their own patch where "they know best", harder than reaching visitors.
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Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby JWCW2014 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:05 pm

al78 wrote:I like the banner on this site: "Don't be a tosser, leave no trace". Bluntly gets the point across.

I'm not convinced Europe is any better when it comes to littering, but I wonder if the UK mentality is more aligned with the U.S. than Europe, and that people choose to live like Americans rather than Europeans. Right wing, insular, ego-centric, entitled, lacking situational awareness, externalising costs if they can get away with it, mission in life to do as little physical activity as possible. From the comments I see on YouTube and the like, American society gives me the impression of being highly dystopic, and I fear the UK is trying to catch up with them. Neo-liberal capitalism of course does not value nature for itself, only for the resources it provides that can be exploited, and environmental damage does not appear on the balance sheet, it is an externalised cost dumped on others, so not too surprising individuals adopt the same philosophy.


I agree with the general point but I’m not sure that generalising all of American society (which I’m sure was unintended) is helpful to this debate. I also think generalising this as a majority of people is wrong, but I note that nearly everyone I know would deny dropping litter. I suspect quite a few answer that way because it’s the socially correct answer rather than them accepting the validity of not littering generally.

It makes me think for the legend in the Republic where Plato wrote about whether a person could resist unjust actions if they were invisible and not called to account for their actions.

Out in the ‘natural world’ with no observers perhaps people who would deny littering do not feel burdened by the constraints of people witnessing their behaviour?
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Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby al78 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:05 pm

JWCW2014 wrote:
al78 wrote:I like the banner on this site: "Don't be a tosser, leave no trace". Bluntly gets the point across.

I'm not convinced Europe is any better when it comes to littering, but I wonder if the UK mentality is more aligned with the U.S. than Europe, and that people choose to live like Americans rather than Europeans. Right wing, insular, ego-centric, entitled, lacking situational awareness, externalising costs if they can get away with it, mission in life to do as little physical activity as possible. From the comments I see on YouTube and the like, American society gives me the impression of being highly dystopic, and I fear the UK is trying to catch up with them. Neo-liberal capitalism of course does not value nature for itself, only for the resources it provides that can be exploited, and environmental damage does not appear on the balance sheet, it is an externalised cost dumped on others, so not too surprising individuals adopt the same philosophy.


I agree with the general point but I’m not sure that generalising all of American society (which I’m sure was unintended) is helpful to this debate. I also think generalising this as a majority of people is wrong, but I note that nearly everyone I know would deny dropping litter. I suspect quite a few answer that way because it’s the socially correct answer rather than them accepting the validity of not littering generally.

It makes me think for the legend in the Republic where Plato wrote about whether a person could resist unjust actions if they were invisible and not called to account for their actions.

Out in the ‘natural world’ with no observers perhaps people who would deny littering do not feel burdened by the constraints of people witnessing their behaviour?


I wouldn't normally generalise and don't agree with it, but when you have browsed the number of social media platforms such as YouTube, Quora, forums and the like which I have that are heavily populated by Americans, and you compare the (dreadful IMO) opinions posted to platforms such as the BBC and Yahoo UK, which I suspect are more heavily populated by UK residents, you will understand where I am coming from. The way we started off in the pandemic going down the U.S. route (i.e. denial and carelessness) and ended up being one of the worst affected countries only reinforces my negative beliefs about UK society (the superb work by UK scientists in finding a vaccine and the rapid rollout and takeup compensated for this to a degree).


https://www.litterbins.co.uk/blog/the-facts-about-litter/
"Almost 48% of people admit to dropping litter." Almost half, a stretch to call that a minority, you can guarentee that more people drop it than admit to it.

I find it odd, the claim that banana skins take two years to degrade. When I throw them on my garden flower beds, they are gone in a couple of weeks.
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Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby JWCW2014 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:56 pm

al78 wrote:
JWCW2014 wrote:
al78 wrote:I like the banner on this site: "Don't be a tosser, leave no trace". Bluntly gets the point across.

I'm not convinced Europe is any better when it comes to littering, but I wonder if the UK mentality is more aligned with the U.S. than Europe, and that people choose to live like Americans rather than Europeans. Right wing, insular, ego-centric, entitled, lacking situational awareness, externalising costs if they can get away with it, mission in life to do as little physical activity as possible. From the comments I see on YouTube and the like, American society gives me the impression of being highly dystopic, and I fear the UK is trying to catch up with them. Neo-liberal capitalism of course does not value nature for itself, only for the resources it provides that can be exploited, and environmental damage does not appear on the balance sheet, it is an externalised cost dumped on others, so not too surprising individuals adopt the same philosophy.


I agree with the general point but I’m not sure that generalising all of American society (which I’m sure was unintended) is helpful to this debate. I also think generalising this as a majority of people is wrong, but I note that nearly everyone I know would deny dropping litter. I suspect quite a few answer that way because it’s the socially correct answer rather than them accepting the validity of not littering generally.

It makes me think for the legend in the Republic where Plato wrote about whether a person could resist unjust actions if they were invisible and not called to account for their actions.

Out in the ‘natural world’ with no observers perhaps people who would deny littering do not feel burdened by the constraints of people witnessing their behaviour?


I wouldn't normally generalise and don't agree with it, but when you have browsed the number of social media platforms such as YouTube, Quora, forums and the like which I have that are heavily populated by Americans, and you compare the (dreadful IMO) opinions posted to platforms such as the BBC and Yahoo UK, which I suspect are more heavily populated by UK residents, you will understand where I am coming from. The way we started off in the pandemic going down the U.S. route (i.e. denial and carelessness) and ended up being one of the worst affected countries only reinforces my negative beliefs about UK society (the superb work by UK scientists in finding a vaccine and the rapid rollout and takeup compensated for this to a degree).


https://www.litterbins.co.uk/blog/the-facts-about-litter/
"Almost 48% of people admit to dropping litter." Almost half, a stretch to call that a minority, you can guarentee that more people drop it than admit to it.

I find it odd, the claim that banana skins take two years to degrade. When I throw them on my garden flower beds, they are gone in a couple of weeks.


Not sure social media is a good place to get a temperature gauge (it tends to display the very loud minority) but agree as with all countries there are sure to be cultural differences (as there are across many areas of the US). But I shan’t digress further into politics!

On some of the popular hills/routes I’m actually sometimes amazed at the lack of litter but there’s probably a correlation between most people who want to go for a decent walk and people who are less likely to want to spoil the landscape.

More populated areas are generally pretty bad for litter though - we’ve a short walk with the dog from our house down the side of an A-road for part of it and the volume of rubbish in the bushes that’s blown in off the road is absolutely shocking.
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Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby prog99 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:30 pm

Ewen1966 wrote:
prog99 wrote:
Ewen1966 wrote:Come to Ireland. Over the years I have encountered fly tipping in glens, a forestry road w.

I’m just not long back. Either there’s a cleanup just happened or we got lucky as we thought all the hills were very litter free.



It isn't so much the hills. It is the glens near where you get people wild camping to get a **** up and an easy place for the flytippers. A lot of us carry the peel and bottles off the hills.
Head along the military road through Wicklow or Hollywood to Glenda lough and you will come across abandoned gear in the woods etc.
The National park tries to police it but there are some areas that are hit every year.
You should have seen last bank holiday and that was when it was soaking. A bit more good weather and mthe numpties will be out with their disposable gear.

Interesting, we were genuinely surprised at how clean the reeks were. One day in Killarney there was a big organised cleanup all by volunteers.
Had heard about Glenmalure being frequented by campers but didn't see any rubbish.
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Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby Ewen1966 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:33 pm

Glenmalure recently had a clean up. However go up nearer Drumgoff and you get to fire rings, discarded rubbish and gear and worse. Knockree is basically a no go for wild camping due to the litter left behind. Then if you go to the less frequented souther end of the Wicklow mountains I have come across a lot of fly tipping off the Coillte roads.
A lot is done by volunteers cleaning up but it doesn't take away from the fact that the litter is there and actually requires volunteer clean ups.
As for road verges, bin bags at the side of motorways and signs on local roads informing drivers that " our children are picking up your litter"
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Re: Bothies and the CWT

Postby Roo and Plum » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:21 am

al78 wrote:
JWCW2014 wrote:
al78 wrote:I like the banner on this site: "Don't be a tosser, leave no trace". Bluntly gets the point across.

I'm not convinced Europe is any better when it comes to littering, but I wonder if the UK mentality is more aligned with the U.S. than Europe, and that people choose to live like Americans rather than Europeans. Right wing, insular, ego-centric, entitled, lacking situational awareness, externalising costs if they can get away with it, mission in life to do as little physical activity as possible. From the comments I see on YouTube and the like, American society gives me the impression of being highly dystopic, and I fear the UK is trying to catch up with them. Neo-liberal capitalism of course does not value nature for itself, only for the resources it provides that can be exploited, and environmental damage does not appear on the balance sheet, it is an externalised cost dumped on others, so not too surprising individuals adopt the same philosophy.


I agree with the general point but I’m not sure that generalising all of American society (which I’m sure was unintended) is helpful to this debate. I also think generalising this as a majority of people is wrong, but I note that nearly everyone I know would deny dropping litter. I suspect quite a few answer that way because it’s the socially correct answer rather than them accepting the validity of not littering generally.

It makes me think for the legend in the Republic where Plato wrote about whether a person could resist unjust actions if they were invisible and not called to account for their actions.

Out in the ‘natural world’ with no observers perhaps people who would deny littering do not feel burdened by the constraints of people witnessing their behaviour?


I wouldn't normally generalise and don't agree with it, but when you have browsed the number of social media platforms such as YouTube, Quora, forums and the like which I have that are heavily populated by Americans, and you compare the (dreadful IMO) opinions posted to platforms such as the BBC and Yahoo UK, which I suspect are more heavily populated by UK residents, you will understand where I am coming from. The way we started off in the pandemic going down the U.S. route (i.e. denial and carelessness) and ended up being one of the worst affected countries only reinforces my negative beliefs about UK society (the superb work by UK scientists in finding a vaccine and the rapid rollout and takeup compensated for this to a degree).


https://www.litterbins.co.uk/blog/the-facts-about-litter/
"Almost 48% of people admit to dropping litter." Almost half, a stretch to call that a minority, you can guarentee that more people drop it than admit to it.

I find it odd, the claim that banana skins take two years to degrade. When I throw them on my garden flower beds, they are gone in a couple of weeks.


The climate in your garden is very different from that at the top of a hill and climate plays a huge part in the speed at which things biodegrade. Also, many plant species that exist at altitude are specialists in the environment they inhabit and introducing non-native fertilisers (effectively what banana/orange peel etc are) affects the soil makeup and is harmful.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ben-nevis-banana-skins-mountain-litter-rubbish-three-peaks-a9009526.html%3famp
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