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electric cars

Re: electric cars

Postby Paul Webster » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:09 am

How do you find the electric car in winter, does it take longer to charge, battery power when using the heater etc, do you preheat the car when connected to the charger at home , be interesting to know your thoughts.


Does anyone have experience of how different the range on electric cars is in winter, is the battery less efficient in the same way as an iPhone packs up in the cold?


Yes, it goes less far in winter. We live in pretty much the coldest UK location, and the range goes from 220 miles in summer down to about 150km at the coldest (-10C-ish in recent years). Not much of an issue to me as how far I'm willing to go for a day trip in winter also goes down similarly with the short daylight hours etc.

Charging is also similarly slower, but I couldn't tell you by how much as nearly always charging at home. A similar %age change?

A (sort of) downside to electric engine efficiency is that it doesn't generate heat, which makes heaters a bigger draw. The Zoe (don't know other cars) has a heat exchanger for the heater which helps alot (likewise, even the full beam headlights are LED). I don't skimp on the winter heater so that's included in the figures. Yes, I would preheat at home when it's cold - thinking of comfort as much as anything else - you can press a button on your phone from the house (or set a schedule if you commute) and have it heat up before you go out to the car - clears the ice from windscreen too.

I'm not convinced how long people own cars (of whatever type) individually has an effect on environmental footprint, as people don't throw them away and they will likely be someone's car until end of life. If everyone bought cars brand new and drove them until ready for scrap, not sure that's environmentally different to if people traded cars in after a year, some people buying new, some a year old, 2 years old etc and the cars cascade along. Truth somewhere between. How long cars last, manufacture process and scrapping process etc. all relevant but we're off topic here.
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Re: electric cars

Postby AyrshireAlps » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:36 am

I'll get an electric car when you get one new for ~22k that will do 450 miles and can be charged fully in under an hour at one of the many hundred charging points throughout the Highlands. I reckon I'll have another few petrol cars before that happens.


This brings up a point, basically, it may not be too long before we have no choice. We need to get away from comparing to ICE cars - I'm as bad - My wee van does 50mpg, I can theoretically do over 600 miles with 4 bikes in the back, no electric car will do that in the next few years at least, so I've resigned myself to thinking that this will be my last vehicle with those attributes.

I don't really see massive advances in battery technology, the gains now will be from efficiency, solar charging, recharging from braking etc. Tbh 280 miles is about all anyone should be driving anyway, is it not? without some form of break I mean. We don't allow lorries to drive for hours on end for that reason. The big advancements then will be the availability and speed of charging, massive investment required.

We also need to remember that what we do is far form the norm, the average UK journey is something daft like 5 miles, and those are also the most polluting journeys. There's not really the demand to build a leccy car for your average bagger!. I know folk that won't buy a leccy car as they drive south once a year, so they base their car choice on one journey per year. I think that's the mindset we need to escape from.

Oh, and once we do move over to electric, it won't be as cheap as it is now either, it'll cost us much the same as what we pay now per mile really. That network of chargers doesn't come cheap.

I'd love one tbh, hopefully my next car.

Does anyone have experience of how different the range on electric cars is in winter, is the battery less efficient in the same way as an iPhone packs up in the cold?



Iphone circuit protection kicks in in cold and shuts down, it's nothing to do with the battery. It's the reason I'll never buy another one.

I'm not convinced how long people own cars (of whatever type) individually has an effect on environmental footprint, as people don't throw them away and they will likely be someone's car until end of life


Manufacture must be a huge part of a cars carbon footprint, and there's a **** load of cars lying around in forecourts. Also, cars being insurance write-offs purely down to paint repair frinstance, then cars scrapped when it's still perfectly functional.
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Re: electric cars

Postby CharlesT » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:37 am

Interesting discussion. I have been driving a petrol/electric hybrid since October 2019 and wouldn't go back to petrol only. Almost all my journeys are less than 20 miles and use the battery only. Full charge range in summer is 23 miles and in winter 19 miles. Aircon and heating do drain the battery, but not too heavily in my experience. So long as you're not too heavy with the right foot visits to petrol stations are rare. The effect of Covid has of course cut down my journeys to the hills, particularly Scotland, and it's only done 12300 miles to date. The question of range and availability of rapid charging facilities en route kept me away from going fully electric at the time, but I think my next car will be so, as and when my preferred manufacturer can provide what I want. The charging infrastructure is growing apace and there will inevitably be improvements in battery technology going forward. As the demand for fossil fuels declines I am convinced the current suppliers will switch their investment into electric and it will happen much quicker than you think. Self interest is a great motivator.

A friend has just exchanged his high spec hybrid business vehicle to full electric, and he does around 50,000 miles a year. He doesn't appear to experience any problems with keeping it charged wherever his business takes him.
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Re: electric cars

Postby Alex W » Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:44 pm

My accountant has told me that the tax incentives for a business acquiring an electric car are now very advantageous. I can buy an electric car and offset the full cost against Corporation Tax in year1. Benefit in Kind is minimal. For a small business like mine that is food for thought about acquiring an electric car, but for a large business replacing its fleet it must be overwhelming. That I would expect will put many more electric cars on the road and will put pressure on, but ultimately lead to enlargement of the charging infrastructure.

Whether it makes any difference to our access in the areas with hills in them of course is yet to be seen, but the direction of travel is clear.
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Re: electric cars

Postby Phil the Hill » Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:10 pm

We have installed solar panels on our roof which generate a healthy surplus of electricity, which would charge an electric car (if I had one) for free (or at least for the low cost of the electricity we would otherwise have sold to the grid). I'm therefore considering electric for my next car. The problem is that I live 500 miles away from Scotland, so I'd have used up all my solar power by the time I got to the Highlands. My e-bike is fully charged with solar power, but I've had to transport it there on the back of the petrol car.

The obvious solution would be to move to Scotland (when I retire), but I suspect I wouldn't generate as much solar electricity as in South London.
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Re: electric cars

Postby AyrshireAlps » Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:01 pm

The obvious solution would be to move to Scotland (when I retire), but I suspect I wouldn't generate as much solar electricity as in South London.


The advances in solar are incredible, potentially still harvesting energy at night!.
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Re: electric cars

Postby Alex W » Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:20 pm

AyrshireAlps wrote:
The obvious solution would be to move to Scotland (when I retire), but I suspect I wouldn't generate as much solar electricity as in South London.


The advances in solar are incredible, potentially still harvesting energy at night!.


The ultimate will be electric cars which use solar energy. There is one in prototype which might make it to the market in a year or two (at a price tag of £250k). That won't be for us, but it might make viable the idea of solar energy providing a trickle charge while the car is parked and we are off on a walk. You can already do this on a small scale, so presumably technology could advance in a short time to a stage where you could give your electric car a boost.
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Re: electric cars

Postby Chris Henshall » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:10 pm

Given that the emissions from the manufacture of electric cars are very similar to (and generally greater than) those from conventional cars, they are no panacea and are certainly not going to stop us from hitting 3.5°C of warming by 2100. Depending on how many miles a car is driven before it is scrapped, they are a marginal improvement on conventional cars and, really, just a reflection of the power of the motoring lobby in shaping government policies and the public perception of what is important.
If people were properly serious about reducing their carbon footprints (and I contend that most of us are not) they'd cycle or, maybe, take the train. Don't get me wrong, I'm not properly serious about reducing my carbon footprint either; like most people, I do what suits me / what I can afford. That's why governments have to take the difficult decisions when it comes to regulating economic mechanisms in the best interests of the majority. Problematically, though, this makes governments more difficult to elect. "Tragedy of the Commons" innit?
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Re: electric cars

Postby al78 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:37 pm

Chris Henshall wrote:Given that the emissions from the manufacture of electric cars are very similar to (and generally greater than) those from conventional cars, they are no panacea and are certainly not going to stop us from hitting 3.5°C of warming by 2100. Depending on how many miles a car is driven before it is scrapped, they are a marginal improvement on conventional cars and, really, just a reflection of the power of the motoring lobby in shaping government policies and the public perception of what is important.
If people were properly serious about reducing their carbon footprints (and I contend that most of us are not) they'd cycle or, maybe, take the train. Don't get me wrong, I'm not properly serious about reducing my carbon footprint either; like most people, I do what suits me / what I can afford. That's why governments have to take the difficult decisions when it comes to regulating economic mechanisms in the best interests of the majority. Problematically, though, this makes governments more difficult to elect. "Tragedy of the Commons" innit?


Easy to say take the train if you have the privilige of wealth. For me to visit my family by car, the tangible cost (fuel) is about £60 even after the recent surge in fuel cost. To take the train costs around £110 now it is impossible to find advance tickets for the journey I want to make. Fine if money is no object, but many people live a delicate balance between income and expenditure.

I do walk and cycle local journeys, I chose my house because it is in a location which makes most journeys doable without a car. The pandemic and the shift towards hybrid working has further reduced my mileage. I also had solar PV installed back in Spring, but this has yet to translate into reduced household energy bills.

One of the fundamental problems in trying to be environmentally conscious and making responsible lifestyle decisions is that you frequently get punished for it one way or another. The price comparison of long journeys by car and train is one example. Cultivating an allotment instead of buying veg from supermarkets, where damaging locked in weather patterns, pest infestations, large amounts of time and energy consumed, and crop failures is another example. If you want to go car free you may financially gain but you pay in terms of convenience and practicality. If eco-friendly options were as cheap and convenient as the status quo, everyone would be choosing them, and that is what lifestyle choices mainly come down too, monetary price and convenience.
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Re: electric cars

Postby AyrshireAlps » Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:21 am

they are no panacea


Absolutely, but I feel they are an important first step in terms of getting us away from our addiction to burning hydrocarbons.

lifestyle choices mainly come down too, monetary price and convenience.


I'd say convenience far more than monetary cost, otherwise why would so many people drive their ridiculously short journeys every day?. If the train was 25% cheaper in all cases, just how many folk would take the train in reality?.
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Re: electric cars

Postby al78 » Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:36 am

AyrshireAlps wrote:
they are no panacea


Absolutely, but I feel they are an important first step in terms of getting us away from our addiction to burning hydrocarbons.


I agree. Beware the Nirvana fallacy:

https://nesslabs.com/nirvana-fallacy

Breaking the dependance on fossil fuels is going to be a step by step process. The question is do we have the time.

AyrshireAlps wrote:lifestyle choices mainly come down too, monetary price and convenience.


I'd say convenience far more than monetary cost, otherwise why would so many people drive their ridiculously short journeys every day?. If the train was 25% cheaper in all cases, just how many folk would take the train in reality?.[/quote]

Walking and cycling are slower (except in very specific circumstances) and require being exposed to the poor UK weather. Cycling, and to some extent walking, requires exposing one to the externalised risk imposed by motor vehicles. In the case of cycling short journeys instead of driving, perceived risk and comfort comes into it as well. A third effect is perceived risk of attack. To hear some people in my local bridge club talk, you'd think Horsham, W Sussex, was one of the worlds most dangerous places for violent crime with some of the worlds worst weather.
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Re: electric cars

Postby al78 » Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:39 am

al78 wrote:
AyrshireAlps wrote:they are no panacea


Absolutely, but I feel they are an important first step in terms of getting us away from our addiction to burning hydrocarbons.


I agree. Beware the Nirvana fallacy:

https://nesslabs.com/nirvana-fallacy

Breaking the dependance on fossil fuels is going to be a step by step process. The question is do we have the time?

AyrshireAlps wrote:
al78 wrote:lifestyle choices mainly come down too, monetary price and convenience.


I'd say convenience far more than monetary cost, otherwise why would so many people drive their ridiculously short journeys every day?. If the train was 25% cheaper in all cases, just how many folk would take the train in reality?.


Walking and cycling are slower (except in very specific circumstances) and require being exposed to the poor UK weather. Cycling, and to some extent walking, requires exposing one to the externalised risk imposed by motor vehicles. In the case of cycling short journeys instead of driving, perceived risk and comfort comes into it as well. A third effect is perceived risk of attack. To hear some people in my local bridge club talk, you'd think Horsham, W Sussex, was one of the worlds most dangerous places for violent crime with some of the worlds worst weather.
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Re: electric cars

Postby AyrshireAlps » Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:42 am

Walking and cycling are slower (except in very specific circumstances) and require being exposed to the poor UK weather. Cycling, and to some extent walking, requires exposing one to the externalised risk imposed by motor vehicles. In the case of cycling short journeys instead of driving, perceived risk and comfort comes into it as well. A third effect is perceived risk of attack. To hear some people in my local bridge club talk, you'd think Horsham, W Sussex, was one of the worlds most dangerous places for violent crime with some of the worlds worst weather.


All of that is about perception though, and confirmation bias. People will generally use any of those as an excuse to justify their behaviour.

I was chatting to my bike commute buddy about the weather in particular yesterday, even living in the West of Scotland, the amount of days we actually cycle the 30 minute journey in rain is way, way less than you would expect.
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Re: electric cars

Postby Giant Stoneater » Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:41 pm

There was a saying let the train take the strain but that went out the window where i stay when they timetable was upgraded and all trains between 8am and 9am were removed, how were people supposed to get to work.
So much for for trying to entice folk away from using cars.
It took the intervention of a MSP minister to get trains reinstated.
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Re: electric cars

Postby WalkWithWallace » Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:01 pm

Drifting off subject a bit but car culture needs addressing, loads of local trips could be done by walking or cycling. Admittedly we're central so can walk to the supermarket is easy for us. Cycling to work for me is much quicker than taking the car or the bus.
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