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electric cars

Re: electric cars

Postby Glengavel » Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:23 am

Giant Stoneater wrote:There was a saying let the train take the strain but that went out the window where i stay when they timetable was upgraded and all trains between 8am and 9am were removed, how were people supposed to get to work.
So much for for trying to entice folk away from using cars.
It took the intervention of a MSP minister to get trains reinstated.


Not just the trains. I used to be able to get a bus from Ferrytoll P&R that went right past my place of work. Stagecoach pulled the plug on that one. Now I have to add in a twenty minute walk for the nearest service. Another bus between Kirkcaldy and Dunfermline was axed, turning a 30 minute journey into a 50 minute journey.
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Re: electric cars

Postby gman » Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:06 am

I think we kind of know the cost of hill bagging with petrol/diesel cars versus electric cars at the present day, but we don't really know what happens when everyone goes electric. Right now the govt gets about £35bn a year from VED and duty on fuel, and they'll have to find some way of raising this from 2030 onwards - they're looking at 'road pricing' ie pay per mile. The bottom line is that the cost per mile of electric vehicles will substantially increase, so get bagging while you can! :D

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5802/cmselect/cmtrans/789/report.html#:~:text=Road%20pricing%20involves%20direct%20charges,as%20pollution%2C%20emissions%20and%20congestion.
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Re: electric cars

Postby Glengavel » Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:32 am

As that report says, the only way to charge drivers by the mile is to introduce telematic tracking. Aside from the logistical and technical issues - hello big brother!

My beef with pay-per-mile is that it's a tax on rural dwellers. 10p per mile on a round trip of 2 miles for a weekly shop is £10.40 a year, a 20 mile round trip is £104. The usual argument to that is "well, don't live in the country" which is not helpful.
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Re: electric cars

Postby AyrshireAlps » Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:27 pm

hello big brother!


I'm fairly sure just about every new car these days already has that capability, and tbh not many folk don't have a smart phone as well, so they already know way more about us than we thought possible a few years ago.

Smart meter tech would also be able to detect car charging, and charge a separate tariff, it'll not be that difficult really.
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Re: electric cars

Postby KatTai » Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:41 pm

Glengavel wrote:As that report says, the only way to charge drivers by the mile is to introduce telematic tracking. Aside from the logistical and technical issues - hello big brother!

My beef with pay-per-mile is that it's a tax on rural dwellers. 10p per mile on a round trip of 2 miles for a weekly shop is £10.40 a year, a 20 mile round trip is £104. The usual argument to that is "well, don't live in the country" which is not helpful.


But is this any different to the additional fuel costs they already incur? It's just switching fuel costs for a different cost, in theory anyway depends on the pricing and how it compares.
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Re: electric cars

Postby AyrshireAlps » Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:11 pm

As far as I can see it would work the same in a ppm type system as it does with the current fossil based, unless you then had the likes of standing charges for say, journeys over 10 miles?.

As it stands, it's more likely to be more expensive for those not living rurally, ie city drivers.
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Re: electric cars

Postby al78 » Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:53 pm

Glengavel wrote:As that report says, the only way to charge drivers by the mile is to introduce telematic tracking. Aside from the logistical and technical issues - hello big brother!

My beef with pay-per-mile is that it's a tax on rural dwellers. 10p per mile on a round trip of 2 miles for a weekly shop is £10.40 a year, a 20 mile round trip is £104. The usual argument to that is "well, don't live in the country" which is not helpful.


Unfortunately one of the disadvantages of living in a rural area is you often have little alternative to using a car to get around, and motoring mileage and associated costs will increase. That is the case regardless of the method of propulsion. People who choose to live in a rural area have to accept this, you might claim this is not helpful but lifestyle choices frequently come with benefits and costs (not necessarily financial) which have to be weighed up, that is life in the end.

If we go down the route of taxation per mile when fossil fuel vehicles are phased out, it is arguably fairer to base the cost on demand, so people who drive down very busy roads pay the most, and people who drive on near empty roads pay the least. This way those who live in cities with congested roads and alternatives such as public transport, walking and cycling have the option to use these alternatives, which country dwellers don't. This also follows the standard model that cost is proportional to demand, as it is on public transport. This may result in the population realising that maybe we don't all have to pile into a limited area city centre at the same time, and staggered or hybrid working becomes the norm.
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Re: electric cars

Postby al78 » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:10 pm

AyrshireAlps wrote:
Walking and cycling are slower (except in very specific circumstances) and require being exposed to the poor UK weather. Cycling, and to some extent walking, requires exposing one to the externalised risk imposed by motor vehicles. In the case of cycling short journeys instead of driving, perceived risk and comfort comes into it as well. A third effect is perceived risk of attack. To hear some people in my local bridge club talk, you'd think Horsham, W Sussex, was one of the worlds most dangerous places for violent crime with some of the worlds worst weather.


All of that is about perception though, and confirmation bias. People will generally use any of those as an excuse to justify their behaviour.

I was chatting to my bike commute buddy about the weather in particular yesterday, even living in the West of Scotland, the amount of days we actually cycle the 30 minute journey in rain is way, way less than you would expect.


I counted between April and October 2007 and for my 19 mile round trip in SE England, it came to 60 occasions I would have got wet, despite a bone dry April but followed by a very wet summer. If you get a period like April - June 2012 (the wettest such period on record) or winter 2013/14, the result will be similar. It is not just about rain (which can be largely mitigated with appropriate clothing). Icy roads in winter can make cycling treacherous, and prolonged periods of cold weather such as December 2010 or March 2013 make cycling very hazardous. Studded tyres help but they lose effectiveness in wet snow which sticks to the tyres and covers the studs.

I did go car free many years ago and whilst it was doable, it was tough. Cycling 120 - 150 miles a week every week results in accumulated fatigue. The longer journey time means extra planning is required, and some journeys are not possible. Ultimately my attempt failed when I was hit by a car at a local roundabout and nearly died in hospital (personal safety being another deterrant to cycling, serious accidents are much rarer than people think but it only takes one).
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Re: electric cars

Postby nathan79 » Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:24 pm

I said goodbye to diesel last year with the full expectation that my current petrol car will be my last ICE car. The hope being that by the time it comes to needing the next new wagon, the charging infrastructure will be much improved, ideally I'll have solar panels on the roof and there'll be a wide variety of models and budgets to choose from.

I do know a good few people now who have electrics and hybrids and treat every one of those as a guinea pig. I suspect if I can badger the other half enough to learn to drive we'll get a smallish electric car in addition to my petrol one so we can get a real sense of the practicality of electric for us and put to rest any of the concerns of it.

Since crossing over to the south side of the Forth to live my work commute has decreased massively (to the point where I should cycle it much more often than I do and an electric car would be ideal). And on a negative point my hill trips have also decreased massively, it seems much further to go and I think "can I justify this for a day trip?". I'm more likely to hop on my bike and head up the Pentlands on my bike instead. Great for my fitness and the planet but terrible for my hill lists!
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Re: electric cars

Postby Sunset tripper » Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:42 pm

al78 wrote:
I did go car free many years ago and whilst it was doable, it was tough. Cycling 120 - 150 miles a week every week results in accumulated fatigue. The longer journey time means extra planning is required, and some journeys are not possible. Ultimately my attempt failed when I was hit by a car at a local roundabout and nearly died in hospital (personal safety being another deterrant to cycling, serious accidents are much rarer than people think but it only takes one).


Indeed, I've been knocked off my bike on three occasions now, all three times the car driver was at serious fault. Still I cycle to work every time whether rain, sun, snow etc. :crazy:

Hill walking is a very environmentally unfriendly activity in general, bagging even moreso but no big deal when you look at the big picture. The worst impact you can have on the environment is having kids. We cause more damage having a few kids than driving a big gas guzzler. Nobody really likes to mention this, though David Attenborough has pointed it out before, it didn't get much air time. :?
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Re: electric cars

Postby JWCW2014 » Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:53 pm

The idea of an electric car appeals but as others have said the lack of a mature charging network north of the central belt is a bit off putting (especially when you have young children and the idea of planning detours to charge is an added issue).

On cost my 7 year old hatchback did about 55-60 mpg on the 180 miles I drove today (for a holiday not just a day on the hills!). That’s around £30-£40 and there’s no chance of anyone attempting those sorts of distances on the public transport system through the highlands, even if it was free!
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Re: electric cars

Postby CharlesT » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:36 am

Sunset tripper wrote:The worst impact you can have on the environment is having kids. We cause more damage having a few kids than driving a big gas guzzler. Nobody really likes to mention this, though David Attenborough has pointed it out before, it didn't get much air time. :?

Hmmm? So passing on my genes to three daughters whom have likewise passed them on to seven grandchildren I have done more to wreck the planet than all my carbon consuming motoring, and my adoption of hybrid technology and eventually electric is merely a sop to my conscience. I'll have to think about that. 🤔
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Re: electric cars

Postby Sunset tripper » Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:23 am

CharlesT wrote:
Sunset tripper wrote:The worst impact you can have on the environment is having kids. We cause more damage having a few kids than driving a big gas guzzler. Nobody really likes to mention this, though David Attenborough has pointed it out before, it didn't get much air time. :?

Hmmm? So passing on my genes to three daughters whom have likewise passed them on to seven grandchildren I have done more to wreck the planet than all my carbon consuming motoring, and my adoption of hybrid technology and eventually electric is merely a sop to my conscience. I'll have to think about that. 🤔


Aye. I'm not sure if it would slow it down much if you gave them all an electric car. :D

Screenshot_20220702-105020_Chrome.jpg
This simple graph says it all, apparantly it's unsustainable - but when it comes to climate talks it's the gigantic elephant in the room! :crazy:
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Re: electric cars

Postby AyrshireAlps » Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:26 pm

al78 wrote:
AyrshireAlps wrote:
Walking and cycling are slower (except in very specific circumstances) and require being exposed to the poor UK weather. Cycling, and to some extent walking, requires exposing one to the externalised risk imposed by motor vehicles. In the case of cycling short journeys instead of driving, perceived risk and comfort comes into it as well. A third effect is perceived risk of attack. To hear some people in my local bridge club talk, you'd think Horsham, W Sussex, was one of the worlds most dangerous places for violent crime with some of the worlds worst weather.


All of that is about perception though, and confirmation bias. People will generally use any of those as an excuse to justify their behaviour.

I was chatting to my bike commute buddy about the weather in particular yesterday, even living in the West of Scotland, the amount of days we actually cycle the 30 minute journey in rain is way, way less than you would expect.


I counted between April and October 2007 and for my 19 mile round trip in SE England, it came to 60 occasions I would have got wet, despite a bone dry April but followed by a very wet summer. If you get a period like April - June 2012 (the wettest such period on record) or winter 2013/14, the result will be similar. It is not just about rain (which can be largely mitigated with appropriate clothing). Icy roads in winter can make cycling treacherous, and prolonged periods of cold weather such as December 2010 or March 2013 make cycling very hazardous. Studded tyres help but they lose effectiveness in wet snow which sticks to the tyres and covers the studs.

I did go car free many years ago and whilst it was doable, it was tough. Cycling 120 - 150 miles a week every week results in accumulated fatigue. The longer journey time means extra planning is required, and some journeys are not possible. Ultimately my attempt failed when I was hit by a car at a local roundabout and nearly died in hospital (personal safety being another deterrant to cycling, serious accidents are much rarer than people think but it only takes one).


Wet though, like really wet? Pretty sure where I live gets more annual rainfall than where you do, and it's only a problem if you're a bit of a princess about it. Also, waterproofs.

I'd imagine the risks are far higher on your roads though, given how much quieter they are up here.
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Re: electric cars

Postby Andy Milne » Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:42 am

Electric cars may end up being the equivalent of BetaMax.

Oil companies are starting to really investigate fully synthetic fuels that can go into a standard ICE. This is what is being used in the World Rally Championship. If they can get ‘high end’ performance cars to run on fully synthetic fuels, and able to manufacture it at a sensible price, then no one needs to change vehicles.
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