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1997 Munro promotions

1997 Munro promotions


Postby weedavie » Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:14 am

Recent discussion of Sgurr na Lapaich did make me think the SMC should be going back to revisit the 1997 Munro changes. They were seen at the time as a way of selling Munro books. The fact that all were on NTS property and gave no access issues fuelled this theory. That said, while three were pretty fair re-assessments, the rest remain very doubtful looking.

The sensible ones were

Buachaille Etive Beag - Stob Coire Raineach 177 metres reascent.
Beinn Alligin - Tom na Gruagaich 155 metres reascent.
Beinn Eighe - Spidean Coire nan Clach 172 metres reascent.

You wonder if Munro got a knockback off the barmaid at the Torridon hotel to get him so sniffy about the local peaks.

On the other hand

Buachaille Etive Mor - Stob na Broige 134 metres reascent. Not enough separationt, Stob na Doire is 2k away and dwarfs it.

Sgor an Lochain Uaine 118 metres reascent. Clearly just a top of Cairn Toul, one kilometre away. This and An Stuc were the real nonsenses.

Sgurr na Carnach 134 metres reascent. Best candidate of the bunch but still only one kilometre from Sgurr Fhuran and insufficient drop between.

An Stuc 126 metres reascent. This was the silliest. It was made a Munro because it was the same height as Meall Garbh so could not be separated. If it had been a Corbett clash (all now ironed out), you'd just have been told to visit both for your tick. Since then, An Stuc has lost one metre and Meall Garbh has gained five, so there is no reason for its retention in the top division.

Stob Coire Sgreamhach 128 metres reascent. An undistinguished junction of ridges. It doesn't look as pretty as Stob Coire nan Lochain.

Myself, at that point I gave up on the SMC's list. I reinstated Sgurr na Lapaich in my count, and ignored all but Spidean Coire nan Clach of the changes. I've been on them all anyway. But you'd think the SMC would revisit its misjudgements.
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Re: 1997 Munro promotions

Postby jupe1407 » Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:04 am

When was Creag Pitridh promoted? It's like an 90m reascent or something after Geal Charn :lol:
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Re: 1997 Munro promotions

Postby prog99 » Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:19 pm

jupe1407 wrote:When was Creag Pitridh promoted? It's like an 90m reascent or something after Geal Charn :lol:

It’s never been classified as a top.
http://www.hills-database.co.uk/munrotab_v8.0.1.xlsx
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Re: 1997 Munro promotions

Postby iain_atkinson_1986 » Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:48 pm

Do we know how many Munros there'd be if Corbett/Graham rules were applied? I did some rough checks against the UK Hills spreadsheet and came out with 202 Munros but I'm sure my method of checking was probably flawed.
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Re: 1997 Munro promotions

Postby Sunset tripper » Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:50 pm

The big Buachaille is the most contentious one for me. The 2nd munro is dwarfed by the munro top. I think the SMC were just doing munro baggers a favour by making them walk the entire ridge.

They should have done the same with Lurg Mhors top Meall Mor. A travesty to go all that way and miss the best bit of the hill. :D
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Re: 1997 Munro promotions

Postby DopeyLoser » Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:13 pm

iain_atkinson_1986 wrote:Do we know how many Munros there'd be if Corbett/Graham rules were applied? I did some rough checks against the UK Hills spreadsheet and came out with 202 Munros but I'm sure my method of checking was probably flawed.


Using the DoBIH 16.2 I get, for hills 3000ft and over:
- by Corbett rules (500 feet = 152.4m): 200
- by Graham rules (150m = 492.1 feet): 203

the three being:
- Liathach - Mullach an Rathain
- An Gearanach
- Meall a' Choire Leith

If Munro had applied a rule like that there would certainly have been a lot fewer Munros. But he didn't, and as we know he never came up with a firm rule. Maybe if he'd lived longer he would have, though it looks like it took many decades before people started lobbying for rigorous rules.

BTW can I just mention that, from my reading of The Munroist's Companion, he never used, or wrote anyway, the term "sufficient separation" although the SMC web site suggests he did at http://www.smc.org.uk/hills/:
Munro did not write down a precise definition of what he meant by "sufficient separation"

I'd be interested to know why they say he used that term.

Anyhow, it is what it is. I suspect the time for fidgeting with the Munros is pretty well over. Time to make your own list with whatever rules you fancy.
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Re: 1997 Munro promotions

Postby NickyRannoch » Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:22 pm

The whole white mounth round raises questions, especially in the light of the Sgor Gaoithe hokey-cokey but I still can not fathom how Tolmount and Tom Buidhe remain separate munros.

1km apart and 70m up and down.

I'm assuming at one time they might have been assessed a same height?
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Re: 1997 Munro promotions

Postby Senja » Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:16 pm

A pretty good summary by the OP. Lochan Uaine was apparently thrown in to appease the 'gorms fans in the SMC.

I simply ignored that edition.
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Re: 1997 Munro promotions

Postby prog99 » Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:46 pm

Don’t think any changes anymore.
We got a new top in the mamores and I doubt any more after that.
Could still be shake ups in the other lists if Alan Dawson and his big measuring tape finds discrepancies.
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Re: 1997 Munro promotions

Postby al78 » Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:49 pm

I am beginning to think it isn't worth worrying about whether a particular hill is on a list or not. As far as I'm concerned, if a hill provides views of outstanding natural beauty and/or some impressive geological sights, I am interested in climbing it. There are many hills that are way short of Munro height but provide an excellent reward to effort ratio.
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Re: 1997 Munro promotions

Postby ScotFinn65 » Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:09 am

jupe1407 wrote:When was Creag Pitridh promoted? It's like an 90m reascent or something after Geal Charn :lol:


One that confused me (although not part of a recent promotion) is Càrn a' Choire Bhòidheach.

Coming from Lochnagar it is only about 60m re-ascent, although separation is about 3km. From this side, it is a big lump of nothing. :wink:
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Re: 1997 Munro promotions

Postby Moriarty » Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:32 am

ScotFinn65 wrote:One that confused me (although not part of a recent promotion) is Càrn a' Choire Bhòidheach.

Coming from Lochnagar it is only about 60m re-ascent, although separation is about 3km. From this side, it is a big lump of nothing. :wink:


If you look at Munros by Marilyn criteria (150m minimum reascent) then Section 7, Hugh Munro's home turf, has only 3 Munros out of 14 which meet the 150m prominence mark.

I think the only other area that has a comparable level of lower prominence Munros is the Main Cuillin ridge which has only 3 Marilyns out of 11 Munros.

Wouldn't be a bad thing to simply apply the P150m criterion to the Munro list - less baggers moaning about eastern boring rounded lumps, while the hills are still there for those that appreciate them. :wink:
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Re: 1997 Munro promotions

Postby ScotFinn65 » Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:41 am

Moriarty wrote:
ScotFinn65 wrote:One that confused me (although not part of a recent promotion) is Càrn a' Choire Bhòidheach.

Coming from Lochnagar it is only about 60m re-ascent, although separation is about 3km. From this side, it is a big lump of nothing. :wink:


If you look at Munros by Marilyn criteria (150m minimum reascent) then Section 7, Hugh Munro's home turf, has only 3 Munros out of 14 which meet the 150m prominence mark.

I think the only other area that has a comparable level of lower prominence Munros is the Main Cuillin ridge which has only 3 Marilyns out of 11 Munros.

Wouldn't be a bad thing to simply apply the P150m criterion to the Munro list - less baggers moaning about eastern boring rounded lumps, while the hills are still there for those that appreciate them. :wink:


☺️. I do appreciate them and enjoyed the walk. It doesn't stop it being a big lump (didn't mention boring) 😜

I can remember the exact date it started but l did notice this site has a few wilderness experts with a downer on baggers. But it sure is growing. I hope to advance to the non-bagger connoisseur level some day in the future 🤣
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Re: 1997 Munro promotions

Postby Moriarty » Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:08 am

ScotFinn65 wrote:☺️. I do appreciate them and enjoyed the walk. It doesn't stop it being a big lump (didn't mention boring) 😜

I can remember the exact date it started but l did notice this site has a few wilderness experts with a downer on baggers. But it sure is growing. I hope to advance to the non-bagger connoisseur level some day in the future 🤣


Ah, you've overpersonalised and overinterpreted my comment. It was open to misinterpretation I suppose.

Nothing wrong with bagging per se, but some people (by no means a majority) of that parish do moan on about "having to" climb hills they find boring. People who aren't bagging don't, because they stick to what they like.

So converting the Munro list to a P150 list would certainly remove a bit of chat about Section 7 boring rounded lumps.

Much the same with Sgurr na Lapaich, it's a fantastic hill and makes a fine walk. Making it a Munro won't make it a better hill, just a more visited one.
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Re: 1997 Munro promotions

Postby jmarkb » Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:41 am

Any list of hills will always be arbitrary to some extent - you need to pick at least an altitude and re-ascent cut-off (and possibly other parameters) which will also depend on the units you choose to measure in. If we started making lists today, the 1000m hills with 100m of reascent might be what everyone focused on. For historical reasons, the Munros are a bit more arbitrary, but today there is all the information you need available to construct your own list if you don't like the established ones. (As an aside, I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested using a 300ft re-ascent rule for the Munros. Conveniently, it would result it almost the same number of hills, with about 20 promotions and 20 demotions).

I find lists interesting, and useful to motivate me to explore hills I might not otherwise visit. I have completed a couple of them, but they are not my primary motivation for getting out on the hills. Some people seem to be almost entirely list driven, while others are completely uninterested in them, but the majority probably fall somewhere in between. As with many things, they are perhaps best used in moderation!
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