Pronunciation of town and village names

[Glengavel]

Avoch (V is silent like Avon)

I didn't even know that, but now you point it out I see that the Scottish river Avon is apparently pronounced "A'an", does that then also apply to possibly related place names like 'Strathavon', so 'Strathaan'?

How about Lochailort, is that Loch-Ay-Lort or Loch-Eye-Lort?

Strathaven is Straven,

Years ago I heard a radio DJ pronounce Corstorphine (cor-STOR-fin) as cor-stor-FINE,

[NickyRannoch]

In placenames derived from Gaelic or Brythonic/Pictish single word names always emphasise the first syllable. So it's MALL-aig and not mall-AIG (although the Gaelic itself was derived from a two word Norse name )

Multi word names have the emphasis on the first syllable of the final word eg bridge of ORCH-y

The problem is many Scots/English versions of these names are merged into a single word. So if you don't have Gaelic or aren't at least familiar with the Gaelic versions of these names it can be hard to work it out.

Eg Portree or Achiltibuie won't give you any clues but Port Rìgh/Ruigh or Ach' 'Ille Buidhe would.

Avoch (V is silent like Avon)

I didn't even know that, but now you point it out I see that the Scottish river Avon is apparently pronounced "A'an", does that then also apply to possibly related place names like 'Strathavon', so 'Strathaan'?

I'm not a Gaelic scholar but it sounds plausible. Avon is from abhainn (river) and consonants are often changed in pronunciation when followed by the letter H in Gaelic (lenition). Hence abhainn is pronounced a'an but the Anglicised name reflects the spelling (Bh can also be pronounced as V but this tends to be at the beginning of a word, e.g. Bheinn from Beinn).

I've no idea how the south-west Celtic languages pronounce Avon but assume it's from the same word given that Aber is prominent in both Wales and the East of Scotland and means the same thing (mouth of the river/confluence of waters or thereabouts).

It is the same word. Even within Gaelic you will here it pronounced A'an, Avainn and Awainn depending on the dialect.

[1Magnus]

Some place-names (also from outside the British Isles) can be looked up on the pronunciation website Forvo:

https://forvo.com/

It'll give you a soundfile that you can click on and hear the name pronounced.

[Tringa]

From travelling quite a few times on ferries to and from Mallaig the pronunciation definitely has the stress on the first syllable but omits any suggestion of a letter, 'a', and is MAL-ig

Dave

[NickyRannoch]

From travelling quite a few times on ferries to and from Mallaig the pronunciation definitely has the stress on the first syllable but omits any suggestion of a letter, 'a', and is MAL-ig

Dave

Gaelic has broad and slender vowels. A,o,u are broad and I and e are slender.

Gaelic spelling conventions dictate that whatever class of vowel comes before a consonant (or pair of cosonants) must always come after the consonant.

So Mallig wouldn't be allowed as you would have a broad - consonant - slender pattern.

What this means is sometimes vowels are ornamental or there to provide balance rather than being integral to pronunciation.

Leathann ri leathann is caol ri caol
Mar sin a h-uile rud anns an t-saoghal

Broad to broad and slender to slender
So goes everything in the world.

[NickyRannoch]

All that said Gaelic as much as gives us clues as to where you might place emphasis when speaking English I don't think anyone should be expected to pronounce words exactly like Gaelic when they are using English versions any more than I wouldn't say Deutschland, Moskva or Venezia if speaking English.

Even as someone who can speak Gaelic I would never say Porshtree or Oolapool when speaking to someone in English.

[Tringa]

From travelling quite a few times on ferries to and from Mallaig the pronunciation definitely has the stress on the first syllable but omits any suggestion of a letter, 'a', and is MAL-ig

Dave

Gaelic has broad and slender vowels. A,o,u are broad and I and e are slender.

Gaelic spelling conventions dictate that whatever class of vowel comes before a consonant (or pair of cosonants) must always come after the consonant.

So Mallig wouldn't be allowed as you would have a broad - consonant - slender pattern.

What this means is sometimes vowels are ornamental or there to provide balance rather than being integral to pronunciation.

Leathann ri leathann is caol ri caol
Mar sin a h-uile rud anns an t-saoghal

Broad to broad and slender to slender
So goes everything in the world.

Thanks for the info NR. My posting came from what I have heard on the announcements on the ferries, which have always sounded like MAL-ig, but perhaps its my ears.

Dave

[NickyRannoch]

From travelling quite a few times on ferries to and from Mallaig the pronunciation definitely has the stress on the first syllable but omits any suggestion of a letter, 'a', and is MAL-ig

Dave

Gaelic has broad and slender vowels. A,o,u are broad and I and e are slender.

Gaelic spelling conventions dictate that whatever class of vowel comes before a consonant (or pair of cosonants) must always come after the consonant.

So Mallig wouldn't be allowed as you would have a broad - consonant - slender pattern.

What this means is sometimes vowels are ornamental or there to provide balance rather than being integral to pronunciation.

Leathann ri leathann is caol ri caol
Mar sin a h-uile rud anns an t-saoghal

Broad to broad and slender to slender
So goes everything in the world.

Thanks for the info NR. My posting came from what I have heard on the announcements on the ferries, which have always sounded like MAL-ig, but perhaps its my ears.

Dave

Yes you are hearing it correctly. The second a is less important than the first one in speech but required in writing.

[1Magnus]

Soundfile available here:

https://forvo.com/search/Mallaig/

[AyrshireAlps]

As I'm from Lanarkshire, Strathaven is a very common one IME. It's pronounced Straven.

I'll see your Strathaven and raise you Kilncadzow!

[cruachan06]

As I'm from Lanarkshire, Strathaven is a very common one IME. It's pronounced Straven.

I'll see your Strathaven and raise you Kilncadzow!

Yeah, that's a particularly odd one given that Cadzow is the historic name for Hamilton and there are various references and uses around the area with the pronunciation you would expect, E.g. the ruins of Cadzow Castle are in Chatelherault Country Park.

Gowkthrapple is another good one, although pronounced exactly as you would expect I've heard some weird versions of it in the past.

[Booga]

I've no idea how the south-west Celtic languages pronounce Avon but assume it's from the same word given that Aber is prominent in both Wales and the East of Scotland and means the same thing (mouth of the river/confluence of waters or thereabouts).

River in Welsh is Afon, pronounced Avon (V in Welsh is a single f). "A" like the a in "at" and "von" to rhyme with Ron, Don etc.

[NickyRannoch]

Zs in Scots make sense when you realise they aren't Zs but Yoghs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogh

Once printing press took over from written records there were no Yoghs and so Zs were inserted instead.

[DavidShepherd]

The classics for me are the pronunciation of Culzean using the Z - "Culzeen".
Also, Loch Katrine!

[rodderss]

If your ever up in Banffshire area here’s some tips on pronunciation.

Banff=Bamf
Turriff=Turra
Aberchirder=Fogie
Sandend =Sanine
Gardenstown=Gamrie
Portsoy-prtsoy
Macduff=Mikduff