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Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms rescue

Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby BobMcBob » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:18 pm

HighlandSC wrote: Been a while since I've looked but I'm sure it was about 10. Don't you only need 3 or something anyway?

The more sattellites it can see the more accurately it can gauge your position. My phone gets accuracy to 10 meters in most situations. I don't think you need more than that. :)
And the people saying phones are brittle and not waterproof need to look at phones like mine designed with outdoor use in mind. Mine has survived being dropped in a river. It lives in my back pocket and I'm always sitting on it, or falling on it on occasion, and it has never even got scratched. Maybe if you take the fashion-item iPhone as the standard for phones you might think they're all brittle and stop working in drizzle, but this isn't the case.
And you've never seen me on the hill navigating with a phone because I'm always ahead of you as I don't have to keep stopping to check the map :p
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Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby Border Reiver » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:10 pm

I reckon the whole point of having a Map / GPS / Smartphone or whatever is to be able to plan a route, identify features as you travel, always know where you are and navigate with a high degree of accuracy in all conditions. If you're confident that any of these are totally reliable, then surely there's no real need to have any of the others with you. Maybe if I had used a good GPS, then I would be confident enough in its abilities to carry one and use it, but would I be happy enough to not carry a map and compass with me as well ....no, I wouldn't. I never trust anything electronic completely. I used to, but once I came back to my car after a very short walk and found all the windows had wound themselves down....no expanation, never happened before or since.
I reckon the up-side of a GPS is that it is small and can be tucked in a pocket and it won't blow away in a gale, as I've seen happen to some maps.
My personal take on it is that I've got maps of every area that I'm likely to walk in and I don't have the disposable income to invest in good quality, fit-for-purpose electronic devices and it seems as though the advice from this forum is that only those devices that are made specifically for that purpose are totally suitable.
There was an argument put forward that with a GPS, you can have the mapping for whole of Scotland in your pocket and that would be unfeasible with maps. Well you only need the map or maps for the place you are going to walk in anyway.....I've never set off with a rucksack full of maps yet.
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Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby HighlandSC » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:29 pm

Border Reiver wrote:I've never set off with a rucksack full of maps yet.

True. But I've set out on unplanned weeks touring Scotland with a car full of paper maps. Combined with smartphone GPS and connecting to WalkHighlands on the phone to view/download routes I've found and planned walks I never knew existed if I only had a map as I sat in a car at the ferry port in Mull, for example.
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Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby Milesy » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:39 pm

HighlandSC wrote:
Milesy wrote:[you want to use GPS just get a blooming GPS :) They are cheaper!!

Don't think so. £40 and I've got all Scotland OS maps and a GPS that does more than a satmap (£300+).

Smartphones arent free. You still pay for them. Why the hell would I want to take a brand new iphone cutting about manky hills in the rain???

What evidence do you have that "proper" GPS units connect to more satellites? On viewranger on a phone you get a chart that shows plenty connections to satellites. Been a while since I've looked but I'm sure it was about 10. Don't you only need 3 or something anyway?


The same price will get you one which gives you grid refs and long/lat. You can print out small map sections on paper as and when you require. You dont need to buy fancy display screens if you dont want to.

I don't really have the time to go and dig up evidence for you but the iPhone for example uses a very redumentary GPS chip (Broadcom BCM4750) and shares the same small antenna as 3G and Wifi. I have some background in electronic engineering.
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Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby HighlandSC » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:11 pm

No worries Milesy, I’m also not too bothered about digging around in the weeds for techy info on GPS chips. I do also have a cheapo Garmin extrex that gives grid ref/basic data that I’ve run alongside a smartphone and found them to work with the same accuracy. But I don’t doubt there’s a range of variance across devices and their components – just wondered if it was common knowledge, or real geeky stuff.

And somehow you messed up quoting me above. The middle sentence “Smartphones arent free. You still pay for them. Why the hell would I want to take a brand new iphone cutting about manky hills in the rain???” was not posted by me. I can’t even find it elsewhere in the thread posted by anyone else (?). I suppose it was something you wanted to say. Indeed smartphones aren't free but they are often something we all have anyway that becomes easily adaptable to something else.

If you have a smartphone already, then buying a seperate GPS looks increasinly unviable.

............. however that's another debate that's been had before and will rage on.......


as for this thread....

Always carry a map and compass and know how to use them folks :)
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Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby gman » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:37 pm

I take map & compass but recently got a GPS after a trip on the Cruachan horseshoe. Visibility was very poor and the compass developed a growing bubble after I dropped it. Some peaks on the ridge have several paths leading off, and it wasn't easy to tell which one to take without seeing surrounding features etc. By the time I got back to the reservoir it was getting dark and I had decided that the more navigation tools youve got, the better.

After getting the GPS I was on Ben Nevis summit plateau, again in poor visibility and snow, and might not have found the cairn without GPS. I think a map gives me a better feel for the landscape, but I use both now - eg GPS can confirm map grid reference if in doubt, and I can review my actual route when I get home.

Got a smartphone last month, but I'm pretty clumsy & would probably break it on a trip. Kept the old brick and keep it in a pocket switched off so battery should be ok in an emergency.
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Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby Paul Webster » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:52 pm

To relate our experience on the accuracy of devices, we've used both dedicated GPS devices and Smartphones alot in the course of building Walkhighlands. The site currently has 15,300km of walks on it, all of which have been recorded on the ground as GPS tracks by myself, Helen, Phil, Chris T (Southern Upland Way, Annandale Way), and a couple of others. The majority of these walks have been recorded on two GPS devices simultaneously, so that we get a track even if one device failed or there is some muck-up; in total we've got just under 28,000km of recorded GPS track data. This is enough for well over half way around the world :crazy:. Devices used are the Garmin GPS 60, Garmin Geko, Garmin Etrex, Garmin Etrex H, Satmap, Motorola Defy phone running Viewranger, Motorola Defy+ with VR, and HTC Desire with VR.

This amounts to a pretty extensive test, especially with alot of the tracks being pairs of duplicates recorded with different devices. The only conclusion on accuracy from all this is that older devices are less accurate on the hill than more recently launched ones (though all are accurate enough to be a very useful navigation aid). I beleive the difference is that the more recent devices have a H-GPS receiver (high sensitivity) which was lacking on the dedicated GPSs' of a few years back. The Garmin GPS60 (an old, chunky thing with a sticky-out aerial), Geko and the original generation Etrex are noticeably less accurate, and often go crazy in forestry or below steep crags. Recently we've been repeating quite a few routes which were recorded only on the older devices to improve accuracy. The most accurate devices have been the 3 types of smartphone, the Satmap (I only had it on trial and did have other issues with it, that I understand have been resolved) and the Etrex H. There is really nothing to choose between these devices on accuracy - the tracks are almost identical; in a pocket, I think the Defy just shades it against the Etrex H, though the latter matches up when strapped onto a rucksack lid. (I think the chip in the Defy may be the Broadcom BCM4750 which is the same chip as an iphone 4 - which I've never used - , but different to an iphone 3s and the earlier ones where there were complaints about GPS accuracy.)

Anyway, getting back to the topic:

I think everyone who has posted has agreed :thumbup: that all hillwalkers (not everyone who uses the forum - some are heading for walks round Edinburgh :wink: ) should be carrying a map and compass, and have the skills to use them.

There's alot of good information on mountain navigation skills here; for those with basic map reading skills but who are not so confident with a map and compass when the clag is down, it's well worth reading the sections on relocation strategy, catching features, estimating distance, slope aspect, and aiming off, and practising. If unsure, consider going on a navigation course.

We're hoping to publish a more detailed article specifically about the use of GPS and smartphone devices next week.
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Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby monty » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:01 pm

Regardless of the argument against smart phones Paul please take the following into account when you publish your information.

Monty has used a smartphone for the best part of 3 years in the hills in various weather conditions. 99% of Montys gpx tracks on Montys reports are from a relatively old smart phone and are very accurate. In Montys opinion, smart phones in a plastic pouch are as good if not better than the best garmins and other dedicated gps devices. More so the latest models with the latest gps chips.

This does not eliminate the need to carry map and compass when out in the Scottish Highlands with the ability to use both should it be required.

Oh and Milesy, you seem to have ignored the information I have published on my own experience with my own smart phone. So if you dont and havent used one dont comment.
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Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby gman » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:05 pm

Paul Webster wrote:There's alot of good information on mountain navigation skills here; for those with basic map reading skills but who are not so confident with a map and compass when the clag is down, it's well worth reading the sections on relocation strategy, catching features, estimating distance, slope aspect, and aiming off, and practising. If unsure, consider going on a navigation course.


On the 7 tips you've given for relocation, waiting for the clag to clear is number 1 and using your GPS is down at 6. I don't have much patience so would probably go straight for the GPS :D
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Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby Bod » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:07 pm

No matter what tools you use practice and get adequately trained to your individual needs.
(I am currently of the old map and compass brigade, but who knows, one day?)

Paul Webster wrote:
There's alot of good information on mountain navigation skills here; for those with basic map reading skills but who are not so confident with a map and compass when the clag is down, it's well worth reading the sections on relocation strategy, catching features, estimating distance, slope aspect, and aiming off, and practising. If unsure, consider going on a navigation course.


I have been through all of this before when I used to be involved advising on adventurous activities within a Youth organisation, and what was clear was practise and training is essential! It shouldn't always on easier munros routes and in fact lower level stuff of all sorts day and night is required. People always used to say to me too that they have no time for formal training, especially Walking Group Leader and Mountain Leader courses. I was fortunate enough to be able to make the time for this and it was the just the best for me! Met great people and forged my earlier skills and always will be working on them :wink: :D :D

Interesting enough, I see that Mountain Leader Training is currently being rebranded simply 'Mountain Training'. A good move I think as people perhaps used to think they would never lead others, but they still need the skills.

Great debate, and said previously it will go on.......(great topic though :D )
Last edited by Bod on Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby littlemrs29 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:14 pm

As a relatively newish walker - and most recently a walker who either goes alone or with my children - I have to say I now ALWAYS take a map and compass (i hasten to add i have only ever once forgotten my map) and i refer to this first but I do also check view ranger on my iPhone for my own piece of mind and to record my walk details. To me it is important to have basic map reading skills but it is just as important to have a back up - especially when there is one out there in this day and age.
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Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby scoob999 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:26 pm

Without reading back through the post, i dont think anyone has mentioned how this group coped with getting lost? for example did panic set in? people cope with different circumstances in different ways, and panic can be contagious
I am hopless around injured people so dont fall if your with me or your f@**%d, but i'm good at other things!
just trying to expand this a bit as having the right tools for the job is only part of the story :?
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Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby Fudgie » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:59 am

monty wrote:Monty has used a smartphone for the best part of 3 years in the hills in various weather conditions. 99% of Montys gpx tracks on Montys reports are from a relatively old smart phone and are very accurate. In Montys opinion, smart phones in a plastic pouch are as good if not better than the best garmins and other dedicated gps devices. More so the latest models with the latest gps chips.


I would agree with that. I've used my iPhone in whiteout conditions and it has proved itself to be extremely accurate and as long as you turn off 3g and mobile data, the battery lasts for at least 10 hours.
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Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby foggieclimber » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:41 pm

Fudgie wrote:
monty wrote:Monty has used a smartphone for the best part of 3 years in the hills in various weather conditions. 99% of Montys gpx tracks on Montys reports are from a relatively old smart phone and are very accurate. In Montys opinion, smart phones in a plastic pouch are as good if not better than the best garmins and other dedicated gps devices. More so the latest models with the latest gps chips.


I would agree with that. I've used my iPhone in whiteout conditions and it has proved itself to be extremely accurate and as long as you turn off 3g and mobile data, the battery lasts for at least 10 hours.


I am happy to disagree with 10hr battery life!
Using Viewranger app on my 100%-charged Iphone, it lasts a maximum of 3hrs, and that is with bluetooth, wifi, 3g etc all switched off.

I agree with much of what has been said thus far.
Map, compass, GPS, Smartphone with map app, etc are all just tools in your navigation tool box, along with your brain - i.e. skills, experience, local knowledge and common sense. All have advantages and disadvantages, some have more risks than others and some just have no flippin common sense.

I was also surprised that a party as large as 14 could not between them figure out how to get off of a hill.
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Re: Hillwalking warning over smartphones after Cairngorms re

Postby Fudgie » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:33 pm

foggieclimber wrote:I am happy to disagree with 10hr battery life!
Using Viewranger app on my 100%-charged Iphone, it lasts a maximum of 3hrs, and that is with bluetooth, wifi, 3g etc all switched off.


That sounds very strange. I've done a few walks which have been over 9 hours and the phone has still had a fair bit of juice left.
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