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[Mulligrubs]

Hi

I run a Duke of Edinburgh Group and we do about 4 or 5 expeditions per year. I'm always on the lookout for new routes, to vary the experience for the boys and girls. One of the things I have to consider is access for a safety vehicle in the event of a (non serious) casualty.

I've been looking at a route from Fort William to Kingshouse via Rannoch Station. I'll be really grateful if any of you knowledgeable people out there can help me with a couple of questions ...

Q1 – Vehicle access. Do you know if there is ordinary vehicle (not 4x4) access to Luibeilt / Meannanach (NN2668) from Kinlochleven ? If not, do you know how far from Kinlochleven the vehicle road goes ?
Q2 – The bothy at NN2873 – same question about vehicle access, but from Spean Bridge.
Q3 – Creaguaineach Lodge (NN3068) How do vehicles access this ?

Please rest assured that I am not planning to install a massive sound system, take the exhaust off and race around the hills like a rally driver. The vehicle is used only to check up on the well being of the boys and girls, supply them with water, and in the event of a non serious casualty, to evacuate them without involving the emergency services.

Many thanks to anyone who can help me.

cheers
Mulligrubs

[lochlaggan]

You must be having a laugh on so many levels! "supply them with water"

[rabthecairnterrier]

I've been assessing Duke of Edinburgh groups north of the Great Glen for over 20 years and it's
the first time I've heard of a group having to be "supplied" with water. Maybe you need to rethink
and revise your training regime. As for vehicular access, I think it's bad practice for a group operating
in supposedly "wild country" to have supervisors or assessors appear by car as it compromises an essential component of that challenge and experience. When assessing, if there is a suitable track and I have the estates permission I may drive part of the way in, but will stop well short (ie several km) from the campsite and cycle or walk the rest of the way.

[NickyRannoch]

im pretty sure the nandos at craiguaineach is shut over the winter so you might want to bring them in a poke of chips too.

[Mulligrubs]

I've been assessing Duke of Edinburgh groups north of the Great Glen for over 20 years and it's
the first time I've heard of a group having to be "supplied" with water. Maybe you need to rethink
and revise your training regime. As for vehicular access, I think it's bad practice for a group operating
in supposedly "wild country" to have supervisors or assessors appear by car as it compromises an essential component of that challenge and experience. When assessing, if there is a suitable track and I have the estates permission I may drive part of the way in, but will stop well short (ie several km) from the campsite and cycle or walk the rest of the way.

Thanks for this. In many ways, I agree with you 100%. However, the training regime is not mine. It is predicated on our Health & Safety culture where expedition plans are subject to review by a faceless person sitting in a comfy office in the Home Counties with numerous copies of "Things to insist on before approving anything more than a walk around the local bowling green" sitting in front of him, and to whom the phrase "wild country" signifies the pub on the local sink estate. Insistable things include the ability to supply water and, believe it or not for Bronze Expeditions, the supply of flushing toilets. But this may well be apocryphal. Or not.

So far as the vehicle is concerned, it is not there to surprise the participants by showing up unannounced; rather there as a safety measure in the event of a non serious casualty. The amount of paperwork involved if we were to call out MRT or the friendly helicopter has to be seen to be believed.

My original query is based on the "What if someone cuts their finger at point X ? How would you evacuate them?" question. It is not based on running pizza deliveries, although I am sure that some of my boys and girls would be delighted if it were.

[guyhansfordmbcs]

If Rabthecairnterrier was assessing a DofE group that I was supervising, I would expect him to approach just as he describes. I wouldn't expect him to come and join in patching up a kid who's grazed his knee before his mummy can see it. And I wouldn't expect him to get writer's cramp and totally cheesed off drawing up the approval and land clearance forms for the Ministry of Defence two months before the trip. Non-MoD groups can work to their local rules: our rules come from pinstripe suits in London who assume that every MoD group going on the moors might be driving a tank and must be governed accordingly. I can't take Cadets climbing because I'd need to spell out at least six weeks beforehand exactly which crag would have dry rock on which date.

[Border Reiver]

Bring back the days of Braehead & Hamish Brown! H&S people would have fits.

[Ian Johnston]

I've been assessing Duke of Edinburgh groups north of the Great Glen for over 20 years and it's
the first time I've heard of a group having to be "supplied" with water. Maybe you need to rethink
and revise your training regime. As for vehicular access, I think it's bad practice for a group operating
in supposedly "wild country" to have supervisors or assessors appear by car as it compromises an essential component of that challenge and experience. When assessing, if there is a suitable track and I have the estates permission I may drive part of the way in, but will stop well short (ie several km) from the campsite and cycle or walk the rest of the way.

Thanks for this. In many ways, I agree with you 100%. However, the training regime is not mine. It is predicated on our Health & Safety culture where expedition plans are subject to review by a faceless person sitting in a comfy office in the Home Counties with numerous copies of "Things to insist on before approving anything more than a walk around the local bowling green" sitting in front of him, and to whom the phrase "wild country" signifies the pub on the local sink estate. Insistable things include the ability to supply water and, believe it or not for Bronze Expeditions, the supply of flushing toilets. But this may well be apocryphal. Or not.

So far as the vehicle is concerned, it is not there to surprise the participants by showing up unannounced; rather there as a safety measure in the event of a non serious casualty. The amount of paperwork involved if we were to call out MRT or the friendly helicopter has to be seen to be believed.

My original query is based on the "What if someone cuts their finger at point X ? How would you evacuate them?" question. It is not based on running pizza deliveries, although I am sure that some of my boys and girls would be delighted if it were.

As an Assessor for the Cairngorm network, I agree with everything rabthecairnterrier has posted above. Sorry Mulligrubs, but your description of the proposed venture here does not satsify several of the expedition conditions for groups - mainly that the venture should be self contained and unsupported. Also, in the case of a cut finger or similar non-serious injury, I'd expect the team to deal with such an event in line with the training they have been given (which the Supervisor signs to confirm has been delivered)....

D of E ventures are the last bastion of allowing participants to have a real venture under their own steam - lets keep it that way!

Kind regards

Ian

[Essan]

Bring back the days of Braehead & Hamish Brown! H&S people would have fits.

Hamish would be in prison for breaking every rule in the book!

Anyway, to answer the questions, this year's big workparty at Meanach bothy involved taking materials in to Luibeilt by landrover - which suffered damage to the trailer and subsequently got stuck in a bog (thanks to the Estate for their help getting it out!). Not sure if we've used landrovers to get to the Lairig Leacach bothy or not. But basically the tracks in the area (including that from Loch Ossian to Creaguainach Lodge) are very rough and really more suited to argocats or quadbikes. Plus you'd obviously need Estate permission to take any vehicle along them. Useable in a real emergency - though in that case you'd be leaving it to the MRT anyway. Best IMO to work on the assumption you wouldn't be using them to drive in.

Also worth noting that although relatively remote, this is a popular area for walking and any DoE group is likely to encounter other walkers, expecially in the vicinity of bothies.

[Mulligrubs]

Thanks Essan.



I was coming to the same conclusion myself, that this is not do-able for something that doesn't have Land Rover written on the front.

So I guess that I should leave the Bentley at home then, and use my personal yellow Sea King instead.

cheers
M