At what point do you say something?

[IamAJMiller]

Last Sunday (to avoid an early start!!) my friend and I decided go to Loch Lomond to hike up Ben Lomond; even though we'd both been up before and knew there was very little snow on it we packed a full winter backpack just in case. Turns out it was very necessary when descending from the summit down the NW ridge to Ptarmigan which was iced up with a few steep drops to avoid slipping down!

Now as usual on Ben Lomond we saw a lot of unprepared people including a guy wearing football boots (presumably to act as crampons), two girls in trainers with polybag backpacks, a guy wearing yaktraks in steep, hard ice, and a man with a holdall which sounded like a bag full of booze! We said hello to them all and even though it was clear they were dangerously ill-equipped neither me or my friend warned them of the dangers they might encounter further up, fully expecting to be told to "p**s off!" should we do so. One group of students did ask about the conditions further up and we advised them how dangerous it could potentially be, but they just smiled and went on their way anyway.

Then reading about the Lomond Mountain Rescue callout on the 7th of March, a few days after we were there, really got me thinking that by speaking to the people I saw, not only could I have avoided a potential tragedy but also avoided a waste of Mountain Rescue resources. Luckily nothing happened on the day we were there, but it easily could have.

So rather than discussing all the ridiculous sights we've seen on Lomond and obviously the Ben I wondered what people's experience with advising novices to turn back has been? I would imagine most have been told to beat it, but has anyone successfully convinced an ill equipped hiker to turn back? Just interested in your thoughts.

[guyincognito]

I was up there last Sunday, summited around noon. I showed the Ptarmigan slope photos to some under equipped folks who turned back saying that it wasn't for them. Only used micro spikes going up but Crampons and axe were on the verge of being needed. Saw some people going up with hands dug into the snow to get a grip.

[ouroboros]

So rather than discussing all the ridiculous sights we've seen on Lomond and obviously the Ben I wondered what people's experience with advising novices to turn back has been? I would imagine most have been told to beat it, but has anyone successfully convinced an ill equipped hiker to turn back? Just interested in your thoughts.

Personally I give advice if asked. Otherwise I let others get on with it.

Is there any suggestion that any of the woeful inadequates you met actually came to harm....if not did you misjudge them?

[clivegrif]

Hello

Being a professional H&S bod, I'm quite used to saying 'You really don't want to do that....', but just as in my day job, it doesn't always work.

Amongst my successes-
A breathless hippy slumped on a rock just after the first bridge on the tourist path to Ben Nevis, having a fag and asking if he was nearly at the top....
Again on Ben Nevis. but this time in February, we turned round a group of teenagers in jeans and tee shirts at the bottom of the zigzags.
A family that included Mum in red stiletto heels (!) who were starting up the steep slope towards the Crib Goch arete on Snowdon.

Those who didn't want to know included a group of indestructable teenagers in tee shirts and shorts on Snowdon who weren't put off by me being clad in head to toe goretex with an icicle hanging off my nose....

[IamAJMiller]

Is there any suggestion that any of the woeful inadequates you met actually came to harm....if not did you misjudge them?

No, no suggestion that they came to harm, it could be that some turned back on seeing the conditions but more likely is that luck was on their side and they made it up fine, as 99.9% of people do I guess. It was just the emergency callout on Thursday got me thinking. They were described by the LMR as such: " The group were ill-prepared to tackle a Munro in winter conditions. They had no map or compass, no torch and two were wearing trainers and other clothing unsuitable for hillwalking." This described a lot of the people we saw that day so technically it could've happened to them too. It was really just a discussion on what people have experienced in the past.

[ouroboros]

I suspect that if you took a look at those that have sadly come to an end in the Scottish Hills this winter then you'd have looked them over and given them a big smile and a wave and passed them by sure in the knowledge that you'd passed by an experienced mountaineer.


.....and you'd have been right.

[clivegrif]

Whist my first post on this thread was deliberately light hearted, IMHO this is a perfectly legitimate question.

I picked up enough bodies and parts of bodies during my 31 yrs in the Emergency Services (previous job) to know that Man's stupidity knows no bounds. People frequently need saving from themselves.

Personally I would welcome well intentioned advice about conditions higher up, and have no qualms about passing on such information.

If nothing else I feel I will have fulifilled a duty of care, but if those advised do not want to listen then so be it.

[Backpacker]

Couple of years ago, granted the weather was good

After doing the 3 lochs way I made my way back to the train station at Arrochar, I met 2 lads from Govan who had climbed (the told me this) The Cobbler and the 2 Munros, they were wearing jeans, T shirts and trainers and had a poly bag each containing they're carry out which they had drank at the summits.

They just fancied a wee day, I did think fair play as I had, rucksack with 1st aid kit, waterproofs etc and there they were burnt to a crisp but had obviously enjoyed themselves

Least they brought their empties back with them

[IamAJMiller]

Amongst my successes-
A breathless hippy slumped on a rock just after the first bridge on the tourist path to Ben Nevis, having a fag and asking if he was nearly at the top....
Again on Ben Nevis. but this time in February, we turned round a group of teenagers in jeans and tee shirts at the bottom of the zigzags.
A family that included Mum in red stiletto heels (!) who were starting up the steep slope towards the Crib Goch arete on Snowdon.

So how did you approach these successes? I'm really interested to know how you start up a conversation which is essentially changing someone's plans for them.

[ouroboros]

People frequently need saving from themselves.

An unachievable task - if the problem resides in them you're leaving them with it no matter what the outcome.

The hills are full of folks that think they know what others should be doing.

Sometimes they have a point, usually they just have an opinion.

[clivegrif]

So how did you approach these successes? I'm really interested to know how you start up a conversation which is essentially changing someone's plans for them.

In the first case the guy struck up the conversation - I think he was hoping I would give him an excuse to go back down! In the second case, we pointed out to the group that they would only have a couple of hours of light left, the snow was going to get deeper, and the temperature was going to get much colder - but they still had a long way to go. In the last case, I just 'innocently' asked if they were lost - they were....

Is saving folk from themselves unachievable? It certainly feels like it at times, but you'll find 'Somebody should have done something' headlines in the Daily Wail and other such newspapers every day. However, being a busybody isn't compulsory

[Yochy]

You could point out that the last guy that went up in trainers, now has no need for flip flops

[Border Reiver]

I've only once suggested to anyone they should turn around. I was descending Ben Nevis at about 1.30pm in early March. There was no-one else up there and the slopes were very icy in places. I met 3 guys at the snow line near the Red Burn & stopped for a chat. They asked how much further it was & I asked how long had it taken them to get to where they were - it had taken them 3 hours. I told them that in good conditions it would take them another 2 hours to the top and at least 3 to get back down, ensuring they would be walking in the dark. As they had only something like two ice axes and one pair of crampons between them, I suggested that they call it a day because of the ice and very poor visibility. They seemed to be well equipped otherwise - decent packs, boots and waterproofs. I kept looking back and eventually saw them turn and come back down.

[hailiamdigby]

If someone's stupid enough to climb Ben Nevis in football boots, he deserves what's coming.
I need to buy a pair of crampons as I've only got spikes. I've got an ice axe now but I need to go on a course and get taught how to use it properly. I'm still going walking but I'll know that if ill befalls me, it could easily have been my fault, or not.
As someone has already posted, even the most experienced and well-equipped people have accidents. It's just a case of likelihood, risks etc.

[Circles]

Footy boots...brilliant! So he thought about the conditions and used some initiative...but prob a bit much

I guess this is why we have Darwin awards...Common sense isn't always that common!