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Access trouble in Wester Ross

Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby RyanfaeScotland » Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Am I the only person who when faced with someone being an absolute arse and being wrong about what they are being arsey about would be polite, explain my side of things and give some sort of proof to back up my side?

I doubt all this progress over the past years you folks talk about has came about by people continually being arseholes to each other.
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Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby Dave Hewitt » Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:24 pm

I think you need to put your collective brains in gear here. I was involved in organising "reclaiming" hill outings during the comeback period after foot and mouth in 2001, and various encounters were had with unsavoury land-manager types. But the absolute bottom-line for the reclaimers was that, whatever happened, there was to be no violence on our part and no issuing of threats either.

I'm not for a moment condoning what this Ledgowan chap appears to have said and done, and I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure there's already been enough said on this thread to completely compromise any mass walk - certainly if it involves anyone who has announced that they're prepared to use violence or to conspire to cover things up (that's arguably the greater of the two problems with what's been said on here). The people at Ledgowan aren't stupid - you're discussing and gung-ho-ing all this on a public forum which is quite probably being quietly read by someone from the estate. All it would take is for any kind of incident to happen - however minor, and however not initiated by the visiting walkers - and you'd be in big trouble given the amount of written/published evidence there is already.

There's also the issue that a few people on WH do not in any way represent the much larger general community of hillgoers - and something said on here, or something done in anger on a hill, could cause repercussions for non-WH walkers who happen to visit at some future point, given that the estate is quite likely to tar everyone with the same brush. There's a time and a place for mass walks, for sure - eg I don't for a minute regret what was done in 2001. But I think you've already blown your chances of making sensible use of that method here.

Instead, switch off the bravado, slow down a bit and make use of the existing (and very good) legislation: take it to the council access officer, possibly to your MSP, and also to the MCofS. But don't for goodness sake go around threatening people and then publicly conspiring to cover it up.
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Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby rohan » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:00 am

Absolutely Dave.
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Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby bootsandpaddles » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:05 am

I'm also with Dave on this, no point making the situation worse than it already is when there is plenty you can do within the law.
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Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby The Rodmiester » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:54 am

I totally agree with Dave on this one!
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Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby BlackPanther » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:13 am

Wait, wait. There are two separate things to consider here. I do agree with thoughts posted above, that violence and conspiring are not the best methods to deal with the problem. But as a woman, I think I am allowed to defend myself if attacked by an aggressive man (especially when he carries and axe). No matter who he is and what rights he holds to the land, he has NO RIGHT to abuse me, NO RIGHT to threaten me violently. Whereas I am generally a cheerful cat and don't jump at people, if seriously threatened, I will take steps to prevent the other person from hurting me.

It's really balancing on a thin line...
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Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby iolair » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:32 am

Seems to me that the company which has 'recently' taken over running of this estate are English, and without meaning any offence, there is nowhere near the same level of outdoor access in England as there is up here. Maybe they are unaware of the laws if they have newly owned land here, although on the other hand, the blog also claims the same company owns an estate in Perthshire, so really there is no excuse. Also the threats and intimidation are bang out of order, and maybe he knows the laws and is just trying to intimidate people off his land, but then there's also the chance he's unaware of the laws, in which case it's surely better to get in touch with the estate and politely tell them instead of going up en-masse and threatening violence.
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Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby Helen Todd » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:16 pm

To go back to the original post about the incident which took place on the Ledgowan estate, I work for Ramblers Scotland and we were first made aware of access issues on this estate 2 years ago. We raised it with the Council and it looks as if issues relating to Ledgowan are now discussed at every Local Access Forum meeting – and yet not a great deal appears to have changed. I'm sure the Council has reminded the landowner of his responsibilities under the Land Reform Act to facilitate access on his land.

This is the unacceptable face of Scottish landownership where local people and visitors are intimidated from walking on the estate and the council seems unable to make any lasting impact or effect a change in attitude. Not only that, but the estate is responsible for some of the worst examples of bulldozed hill tracks, which we have been featuring in our hill tracks campaign – see photo here:
http://www.ramblers.org.uk/scotland/campaign-with-us/hill-tracks-in-scotland.aspx

Citizen action is probably the best course of action – keep walking on this estate, make sure you are aware of your rights and responsibilities under the Scottish Outdoor Access Code, and remain calm if challenged. And if you are challenged, report it to the police and let us know too.
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Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby RyanfaeScotland » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:35 pm

Helen Todd wrote:...snip...

Citizen action is probably the best course of action – keep walking on this estate, make sure you are aware of your rights and responsibilities under the Scottish Outdoor Access Code, and remain calm if challenged. And if you are challenged, report it to the police and let us know too.


Helen (or anyone else really),

You wouldn't have a downloadable and printable leaflet on the Access Code would you? I remember there were high quality ones posted through the doors a while back but something like an A4 sheet than can be printed and folded in to a leaflet would be useful. Wouldn't mind carrying a few in my pack on the off chance I feel I need to prove my point and it would be nice to have a few spares to give to others to keep.
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Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby rogasb » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:25 pm

[quote="RyanfaeScotland"]

You wouldn't have a downloadable and printable leaflet on the Access Code would you?


Try http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publications/access/full%20code.pdf
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Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby RyanfaeScotland » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:47 pm

rogasb wrote:
RyanfaeScotland wrote:
You wouldn't have a downloadable and printable leaflet on the Access Code would you?


Try http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publications/access/full%20code.pdf


Brilliant, a 134 page document on the code, that's exactly what I asked for. :roll:

Sarcasm aside that does look like an interesting document, thanks for sharing. :wink:

But what I'm really looking for is something that can have several copies carried without the need for a sherpa and handed to landowners who seem ill informed of the law.
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Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby ouroboros » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:50 pm

I don't think it has a section for dealing with exceptionally arrogant and ill-mannered landowners Ryan. :wink:

...or axe-wielding stalkers for that matter.
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Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby RyanfaeScotland » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:05 pm

ouroboros wrote:I don't think it has a section for dealing with exceptionally arrogant and ill-mannered landowners Ryan. :wink:

...or axe-wielding stalkers for that matter.


Could always shove it where.... :wink:
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Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby gammy leg walker » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:31 pm

Looks as if there may be a walk planned for St Andrews day Sat 30th Nov at Ledgown Estate with a few high profile people in attendance.
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Re: Access trouble in Wester Ross

Postby helenw » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:50 pm

We've had several complaints coming in about posts on this thread today.

I'd ask all to read the posts by Dave Hewitt and Helen Todd carefully.

Please also note in particular that we will not allow any kind of threat or implied threat of violence to be posted on Walkhighlands. Please remember in future that this is a public forum - you are not just chatting with your friends.
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