walkhighlands

This forum is for general discussion about walking and scrambling... If writing a report or sharing your experiences from a route, please use the other boards.

Something to be ashamed of?

Something to be ashamed of?


Postby hailiamdigby » Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:11 pm

When you look at pictures of mountain ranges such as the Andes or the Alps, you can't help but marvel at the effort that could be involved in getting to the top of any of those mountains.

I'm sure many people reading this will have met people who seem to imply that the mountains of Scotland are quaint.
However, when you take in to consideration the deaths that occur every year in the Cuillins, An Teallach, Liathach, Aonach Eagach, Bidean nam Bian, Ben Nevis - not to mention deaths on sub 2000 marilyns - are these comments of "It's just another Scottish hill" justified? By the way, that's a comment my sister and I heard from some stupid American-woman, when we were on An Teallach.

Finally, the Cairngorms is a harsh place in full-winter conditions.

So, any thoughts on if such comments are justified, or are we really making mountains out of mole hills? Pun intended.
User avatar
hailiamdigby
Mountain Walker
 
Posts: 468
Munros:221   Corbetts:92
Fionas:73   Donalds:47
Sub 2000:173   
Joined: Aug 28, 2011
Location: Aberdeenshire

Re: Something to be ashamed of?

Postby cmarcol » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:29 pm

In my opinion not even one bit. Just because our 'wee hills' aren't as high as the Alps does not at all mean they weren't formed by the same processes and don't posses many similar features which are responsible for claiming the lives of many people. There are maybe more of the hazardous features in the Alps but there are more of the Alps. Last winter should be enough of a reason to claim that the scottish hills in winter are not to be messed with. In many ways you could argue the high Alps are safer places due to the number of high road passes and mountain huts which provide very comfortable overnight stops for walkers (many of which have roads all the way to them!)
User avatar
cmarcol
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 285
Munros:282   Corbetts:22
Fionas:6   Donalds:2
Sub 2000:6   
Joined: Jun 4, 2012
Location: Fife

Re: Something to be ashamed of?

Postby doggy » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:50 pm

I understand what you are saying and I often feel the same. I'm new to Munro bagging and to be honest I do feel a little bit let down. Maybe it's just me but so far the ones I've felt have been pretty easy, so far the odd bit of risky scrambling has been the most dangerous thing I've encountered. My friend in work promises me they are very dangerous and some of the best in the world, I haven't seen it yet. I can imagine falling a few hundred meters anywhere in the world would kill you.
One thing that struck me recently was the deaths of the Tiso owner and his son??? I can only assume the have access to the best of equipment and the best of training yet they both died, how does that work?
doggy
 
Posts: 354
Munros:96   Corbetts:1
Sub 2000:2   
Joined: Feb 16, 2014

Re: Something to be ashamed of?

Postby Sgurr » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:08 pm

Mountain rescue keeps a list of types of incident resulting in a call out, (probably does deaths as well, but couldn't find it)

?1995-2006 All are percentages. I can;'t see that any of these would really be different in "foreign" mountains, though percentage due to avalanches might be greater. The objective dangers are overwhelmed by dangers coming from the walkers themselves.

Poor navigation 23
Bad planning 18
Inadequate equipment 11
Medical 11
Poor timing 8
Group separation 7
Inadequate footwear 5
Inadequate clothing 4
Rockfall/handhold give 3
Poor level of fitness 3
Inadequate skill 2
Avalanche 2
River crossing problem 2
User avatar
Sgurr
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 5679
Munros:282   Corbetts:222
Fionas:219   Donalds:89+52
Sub 2000:569   Hewitts:172
Wainwrights:214   Islands:58
Joined: Nov 15, 2010
Location: Fife

Re: Something to be ashamed of?

Postby cmarcol » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:14 pm

doggy wrote:One thing that struck me recently was the deaths of the Tiso owner and his son??? I can only assume the have access to the best of equipment and the best of training yet they both died, how does that work?


The best equipment in the world will not help in many instances - for example if you fall through a cornice there is not much but luck going to save you. If my memory serves me right the founder died in a boating accident when I was a kid - not on a hill. Both incredibly tragic accidents. Many very experienced and well equipped hill folk have perished in the scottish hills. I am always overcautious, sometimes needlessly, but I really don't think the Scottish hills are to be laughed at for being meek.

Regarding your disappointment so far - there are many ways up the hills. Take The Ben for instance. You can make that as easy or as knee tremblingly scary as you like and in winter it is a completely different challenge. Most people stick to the popular ways up which are popular because they're easier and usually quicker and it then becomes the established route.
User avatar
cmarcol
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 285
Munros:282   Corbetts:22
Fionas:6   Donalds:2
Sub 2000:6   
Joined: Jun 4, 2012
Location: Fife

Re: Something to be ashamed of?

Postby hailiamdigby » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:19 pm

Good replies and thank you all.
Those are interesting statistics too Sgurr, thank you.
Interesting stuff.

I don't feel our hills/mountains are gimped. I'm of the opinion that something bad can happen at any height above sea level. It just grates sometimes when some ignoramus makes a comment such as the one I mentioned in my original post.
User avatar
hailiamdigby
Mountain Walker
 
Posts: 468
Munros:221   Corbetts:92
Fionas:73   Donalds:47
Sub 2000:173   
Joined: Aug 28, 2011
Location: Aberdeenshire

Re: Something to be ashamed of?

Postby doggy » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:34 pm

Yep you are correct about the Tiso deaths, I was getting confused.
I tend to try and follow the path up the hill but more often than not at the start I get lost and make my way up the hill over the grass until I eventually spot the path. I want to do all the munros but I'm not foolish enough to attempt to climb rock faces with no training or equipment. The last munro I did was Carn Gorm and It took two hours to the summit, that was easy. The one before that took three and a half hours in the blistering heat, so a big difference, but they were both still easy I think.
doggy
 
Posts: 354
Munros:96   Corbetts:1
Sub 2000:2   
Joined: Feb 16, 2014

Re: Something to be ashamed of?

Postby darren » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:41 pm

Try getting your hands on Cairngorm John. The stories John Allen tells about his years in Mountain rescue are fantastic and mind boggling though tragic to read.
darren
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 169
Munros:35   Corbetts:2
Sub 2000:1   
Joined: May 25, 2009
Location: Condorrat

Re: Something to be ashamed of?

Postby cmarcol » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:44 pm

darren wrote:Try getting your hands on Cairngorm John. The stories John Allen tells about his years in Mountain rescue are fantastic and mind boggling though tragic to read.


Funny I just started that yesterday! A friend has been saying he'd lend me it for ages and I got fed up and bought it the other day. It's amazing how things have changed in those years. So far a very informative read!
User avatar
cmarcol
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 285
Munros:282   Corbetts:22
Fionas:6   Donalds:2
Sub 2000:6   
Joined: Jun 4, 2012
Location: Fife

Re: Something to be ashamed of?

Postby Sgurr » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:05 pm

cmarcol wrote: It's amazing how things have changed in those years. So far a very informative read!



Mobile phone is now overwhelmingly the means chosen to contact the MRT. Imagine if you had to send a party member to the nearest phone box, or just wait it out until your nearest and dearest got concerned....though in the case of fatalities that is still what will happen if you are walking solo.
User avatar
Sgurr
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 5679
Munros:282   Corbetts:222
Fionas:219   Donalds:89+52
Sub 2000:569   Hewitts:172
Wainwrights:214   Islands:58
Joined: Nov 15, 2010
Location: Fife

Re: Something to be ashamed of?

Postby Border Reiver » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:27 pm

It's because our mountains aren't very high and generally look benign, that a lot of people don't take them seriously enough. Therefore, they don't prepare fully and are often poorly equipped, not just for the weather when they set off, but for any changes during the day. I've got a book (1988) by Cairngorm M.RT. that gives statistics on incidents over a 18 year period and it seems that poor navigation skills, lack of correct equipment and underestimating distances were the most common problems (things mentioned by sgurr too). It's also evident that incidents involving climbers are far less common than those involving walkers. Over that period there were 35 deaths mentioned in the book in the CMRT area.
Sure, many of the Scottish mountains are easy on a good day, but how many of those do we get and how often is the weather at 4,000ft as good as at even 1,000ft. I've come off Braeriach early morning in August when temps were no more than 5c yet it was over 20c at Glen More and I was meeting walkers at over 2,500ft dressed in light summer clothing and heading for the summits.
User avatar
Border Reiver
Wanderer
 
Posts: 1509
Munros:202   Corbetts:7
Fionas:3   Donalds:1
Sub 2000:2   Hewitts:62
Wainwrights:69   Islands:33
Joined: Feb 18, 2011
Location: North East England

Re: Something to be ashamed of?

Postby Old Bill » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:50 pm

Who-ever said "It's just another Scottish hill"??

People travel from all over Europe, and indeed the world, to walk in the Highlands. Size isn't everything!
User avatar
Old Bill
Wanderer
 
Posts: 305
Munros:51   Corbetts:3
Sub 2000:1   Hewitts:9
Wainwrights:10   
Joined: Jan 8, 2014
Location: That London.

Re: Something to be ashamed of?

Postby Kevin29035 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:51 am

Why be ashamed? Seems odd, it's a bit like folk in Lofoten getting an inferiority complex because their 'wee' hills barely scratch 2500 feet.
User avatar
Kevin29035
 
Posts: 1221
Munros:173   Corbetts:173
Fionas:73   Donalds:17
Sub 2000:92   Hewitts:8
Joined: Sep 13, 2008
Location: Glasgow

Re: Something to be ashamed of?

Postby Kevin29035 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:53 am

Additionally watch this for a winter and you see that Scotland is one of the windiest places on the planet http://earth.nullschool.net/
User avatar
Kevin29035
 
Posts: 1221
Munros:173   Corbetts:173
Fionas:73   Donalds:17
Sub 2000:92   Hewitts:8
Joined: Sep 13, 2008
Location: Glasgow

Re: Something to be ashamed of?

Postby Essan » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:40 am

Despite their lack of height, the Scottish hills have something than many bigger ranges do not - very unpredictable and fast changing weather, with conditions varying considerably between glen and summit. Variations in climate over a couple of thousand feet are probably greater in the Highlands than almost anywhere else in the world. And this, coupled with their relative accessibility, lures many people into a potential death trap every year.

Appearances can be very deceptive.
User avatar
Essan
 
Posts: 598
Munros:98   Corbetts:52
Fionas:7   Donalds:2+0
Sub 2000:4   Hewitts:88
Wainwrights:24   Islands:5
Joined: Jul 1, 2010
Location: Evesham, Worcs

Next



Can you help support Walkhighlands?


Our forum is free from adverts - your generosity keeps it running.
Can you help support Walkhighlands and this community by donating by direct debit?



Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Gigha and 15 guests