Sgor, Sgorr or Sgurr

[berenos]

Hi all,

I recently got criticised for referring to the Pap of Glen Coe as Sgorr na Ciche, as this is how it's stated on the OS maps, and that it should be Sgurr. Other person: "and the rugged mountains are Sgurr not Sgorr. " Sgurr na Ciche however, is a different mountain in Knoydart, so using Sgurr na Ciche would lead to confusion I suppose.
I am not Scottish and don't speak any Gaelic, but I would like to prevent myself from misspelling Gaelic mountain names (and from mispronouncing them right, but not sure that'll ever happen).

So the question is: can Sgor, Sgorr and Sgurr (which I've all seen used) be used interchangeably, or should I stick to the names as written on OS maps.

[nigheandonn]

Dwelly (THE Gaelic dictionary ) seems to think they're slightly different - but there are quite likely regional differences in pronunciation as well, so one person's sgurr might be another person's sgorr. I can't see that it makes a whole lot of difference!

sgòr -òir, -an, sm Sharp, steep hill rising by itself or a little, steep, precipitous height on another hill or mountain. 2 Peak, pinnacle. 3 Tail of a bank in the sea, concealed rock jutting into the sea. 4 Asperity.

sgorr -a, -an, see sgòr.

sgurr -a, -an, sm High, sharp-pointed hill. 2 Large conical hill (sgòr).

[malky_c]

I think the one below is probably the definitive Gaelic spelling, if there is such a thing

sgòr -òir, -an, sm Sharp, steep hill rising by itself or a little, steep, precipitous height on another hill or mountain. 2 Peak, pinnacle. 3 Tail of a bank in the sea, concealed rock jutting into the sea. 4 Asperity.

The others mentioned would perhaps be English corruptions of that. Obviously the OS has in the past been very variable with the spelling, but it looks like they are now trying to standardise it (see recent editions of the Western Isles sheets. I am now noticing this creep onto mainland sheets as well).

I'm not certain here. Perhaps Colla or another Gaelic speaker can clarify? I'm not sure if Gaelic traditionally had standard spelling, although I'm sure someone has tried to rationalise it a bit now.

Who was doing the criticising? A little bit of knowledge can sometimes be dangerous!

[berenos]

Thanks very much malky_c and nigheandonn, that's been really helpful.

I got criticised on my Facebook page where I share mountain photos. And I would like to claim I take correct spelling as seriously as I do with my photography, so I would definitely want to get the spelling right. The person commenting sounded like she had (some) knowledge of the Gaelic language. But it's hard to judge as it was a) done online and b) anyone could have fooled me, as I was just blindly copying the spelling from here on WH or OS maps..

[nigheandonn]

Trying to standardise Gaelic spelling usually seems to end in tears - there's never really been a national written standard (unless back in the days of the Lords of the Isles?), so there's a lot of attachment to local forms.

I think it's a good thing if the OS are trying to get rid of some of the genuinely anglicised spellings (although some of them, like Ben Lomond and Ben Nevis, just are the names now), but I'd be sorry to see them getting rid of the local variation in the Gaelic names rather than letting you see what people in that area would have said.

[Kevin29035]

Gaelic spelling is entirely standardised - it follows the rules to the dot. But there are massive regional dialects, a lot of which is being lost to time. Names like Ben Nevis, Beinn a' Chreachain will probably never become entirely clear, but I like to see the OS are correcting their mistakes in the spelling.

Though in their latest revisions, I find it odd that in the Western Isles, anglicised spellings are taken over the Gaelic, which seems odd as the Isles are very much Gaelic-speaking.

[Border Reiver]

It becomes even more weird when people who have no understanding of Gaelic names try to turn them into English. For example I've heard the Aonach Eagach of Glen Coe being called the Aonach Eagach Ridge - which if translated fully into English would, I believe be The Notched Ridge Ridge.

[Sgurr]

Dwelly (THE Gaelic dictionary ) seems to think they're slightly different - but there are quite likely regional differences in pronunciation as well, so one person's sgurr might be another person's sgorr. I can't see that it makes a whole lot of difference!

sgòr -òir, -an, sm Sharp, steep hill rising by itself or a little, steep, precipitous height on another hill or mountain. 2 Peak, pinnacle. 3 Tail of a bank in the sea, concealed rock jutting into the sea. 4 Asperity.

sgorr -a, -an, see sgòr.

sgurr -a, -an, sm High, sharp-pointed hill. 2 Large conical hill (sgòr).

I'm easy, as long as people don't try to pronounce my name with a mouth full of oat cakes.

[Kevin29035]

It becomes even more weird when people who have no understanding of Gaelic names try to turn them into English. For example I've heard the Aonach Eagach of Glen Coe being called the Aonach Eagach Ridge - which if translated fully into English would, I believe be The Notched Ridge Ridge.

To me that's not weird because they don't know the Gaelic - and why not. If they did, however....

[CharlesT]

It becomes even more weird when people who have no understanding of Gaelic names try to turn them into English. For example I've heard the Aonach Eagach of Glen Coe being called the Aonach Eagach Ridge - which if translated fully into English would, I believe be The Notched Ridge Ridge.

That's not reserved to the English. All the Knockhills in Scotland are Hillhill, knock being derived from the gaelic cnoc (hill).

[IamAJMiller]

It becomes even more weird when people who have no understanding of Gaelic names try to turn them into English. For example I've heard the Aonach Eagach of Glen Coe being called the Aonach Eagach Ridge - which if translated fully into English would, I believe be The Notched Ridge Ridge.

To me that's not weird because they don't know the Gaelic - and why not. If they did, however....

Oh yeah! I do know the translation as well but I've referred to it many times as the AE ridge; never really thought about it before. Is this like calling the code that goes with you debit card a 'PIN Number'? Personal Identification Number Number?!

[malky_c]

Though in their latest revisions, I find it odd that in the Western Isles, anglicised spellings are taken over the Gaelic, which seems odd as the Isles are very much Gaelic-speaking.

Is that happening? The first and second edition Landranger maps (up until the early '90s, perhaps) had the anglicised spellings of Western Isles placenames on them, but after that they went all out Gaelic. Are they going back again?

[NickyRannoch]

I wouldn't really trust dwellys for much. It's an interesting piece of research and history but there is lots weird, wonderful and plain wrong in it.

Whilst it is true to say Gaelic has standard spelling conventions they only relate to what is being said. Therefore if the Deeside Gaels pronounced it Sgor and the Sgitheanach pronounced it Sgurr then that's how they would write it.

Without a central education system or a guuttenberg/Caxton equivalent Gaelic was not really standardised until Bòrd na Gaidhlig came along. Even then their standardisation is not universally adopted.

I would guess the reason anglicisation happens in the western isles is that it is a living language there. Therefore it is subject to influence and fashion of all other living languages.

It is learners and academics who would shun the English words and want to learn "proper" Gaelic.

[Sunset tripper]

It becomes even more weird when people who have no understanding of Gaelic names try to turn them into English. For example I've heard the Aonach Eagach of Glen Coe being called the Aonach Eagach Ridge - which if translated fully into English would, I believe be The Notched Ridge Ridge.

Its well deserved, like New York New York so good they named it twice

[Caberfeidh]

It becomes even more weird when people who have no understanding of Gaelic names try to turn them into English. For example I've heard the Aonach Eagach of Glen Coe being called the Aonach Eagach Ridge - which if translated fully into English would, I believe be The Notched Ridge Ridge.

Its well deserved, like New York New York so good they named it twice

There are a lot of those tautologies around, such as Fair Aird Head, translating as "headland headland headland", just in Norse, Gaelic and English! I believe the Gaelic Sgor/Sgorr/Sgurr is Gaelicised from the Old Norse Skerrie, as in "Big Jutting Rocks We Do Not Want To Run The Longship Aground On, The Skipper Is Already In A Stinking Mood Since The Battle Of Largs".
On a serious note, the Gaelicisation of Old Norse place names in Scotland is a cultural destruction every bit as terrible as the Anglicisation of Gaelic, which the Gaels are so against. But nobody ever listens to me. Phooey.