walkhighlands

This forum is for general discussion about walking and scrambling... If writing a report or sharing your experiences from a route, please use the other boards.

Piles of Stones

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby BobMcBob » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:47 pm

Moriarty wrote:"Insane overreaction" :lol:


Another one of my easily misunderstood manners of speaking, but chosen deliberately. The use of the word 'insane' is to you as your dislike of piles of stones is to me. My command of the language limits me to hyperbole in such situations. Glad you laughed, that was the intention.

Moriarty wrote:If you object to the use of the term litter I'll return to my original term of graffiti. I woz ere. :(


Ahh. Wow, the power of a simple change of words. I properly understand you now, It genuinely never occurred to me when I see these things in the wild that they were the equivalent of graffiti. I've built piles of stones (you probably guessed that) both at the aforementioned layby and on the descent route from Beinn Alligin. In both cases the idea that I was writing "I woz ere" never occurred to me at all - it wasn't my motivation for doing it.

I'll say to you that it's not like I wrote 'Bob Woz Ere', because nobody but me knows which one is mine. And that's why I like it. I wouldn't scratch my name into a rock, or spell it out in pebbles. Graffiti is about ego (I lived in London for 10 years, I accidentally got in with a crowd that included some graffiti "artists", they're all *****) but this to me seems like the antithesis of that, it's an anonymous thing, just leaving behind an homage to the landscape. Perhaps our reaction to it is simply a function of our interpretation of it?
User avatar
BobMcBob
Rambler
 
Posts: 1420
Munros:73   Corbetts:18
Fionas:9   
Sub 2000:1   Hewitts:33
Wainwrights:12   
Joined: Jul 26, 2011
Location: In a van, somewhere

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby Sunset tripper » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:39 am

Skyelines wrote:

As soon as I leave the gate to my property I am on someone else's land that may be publicly or privately owned.
I therefore have a responsibility firstly to the owners to only do such things as I am permitted to do by law or by permission of the owner and secondly to all who may legitimately have access to that land for their utility and enjoyment.



Moriarty wrote:
We have a fantastic right of access in Scotland.....but it is a right of access to someone else's property (sometimes the Nation's, sometimes private).

We are therefore guests when applying our access rights, not trespassing but not on our own property either.

Our responsibilities in applying our access rights acknowledge that.


The reason we have fantastic access rights in Scotland is because people over the years believed the laws to be wrong. If everyone had meekly obeyed the laws we would have no access rights. Just because it is the law doesn't mean its right.

The above mindset (which is fairly widespread) that everything must be owned by someone is something I cant subscribe to. When I walk out my front door and on to the street or into the wilds I am on land that belongs to me and everyone else.
The "landowners" whoever they may be, are privileged custodians of the land.

The piles of stones dont really bother me. I dont build them and I dont kick them over. It doesnt bother me if people do kick them over or dismantle them.
As previously touched on is it wrong for kids to build sandcastles on the beach should they be kicked over also. (Not the kids that would be insane :wink: )
I travel along the southside of Loch Ness and quite often stop in a certain layby. There are many flat stones on the shore which i like to skim across the loch. I guess some would see this as altering the landscape and wrong. But looking at the big picture the loch was raised a few feet when the canal was built and the only natural island was submerged.

I suppose what im trying to say is i find the building of cairns fairly insignificant.
Though I think many folk would be upset if summit marker cairns were dismantled :shock:
User avatar
Sunset tripper
 
Posts: 2965
Joined: Nov 3, 2013
Location: Inverness

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby Moriarty » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:12 am

BobMcBob wrote:I'll say to you that it's not like I wrote 'Bob Woz Ere', because nobody but me knows which one is mine. And that's why I like it. I wouldn't scratch my name into a rock, or spell it out in pebbles.

Although, on a planet with 10 billion people and who knows how many Bobs, writing "Bob woz ere" is scarcely less anonymous than nothing at all. It's your marker of your passage.

SunsetTripper wrote:The above mindset (which is fairly widespread) that everything must be owned by someone is something I cant subscribe to. When I walk out my front door and on to the street or into the wilds I am on land that belongs to me and everyone else.
The "landowners" whoever they may be, are privileged custodians of the land.

Certainly a reasonable view. Ownership ultimately resides with Parliament, land ownership is simply the possession of certain enhanced rights. The people, through their Parliament, could suspend or revoke those rights.

The issue the previous poster was alluding to (I think) was that it's not yours specifically - somewhere that's yours is somewhere you can repaint the walls the colour you like. Somewhere that's ours, with or without an owner with a greater interest in events, is somewhere you are visiting that belongs to others as well.

It would be considered rude to rearrange the furniture and repaint the walls of the locally-owned Community Centre red, even if you are a member of the local community. :wink:
Moriarty
 
Posts: 437
Joined: Dec 15, 2013

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby Moriarty » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:17 am

Sunset tripper wrote:
Skyelines wrote:As soon as I leave the gate to my property I am on someone else's land that may be publicly or privately owned.

That's one of the most sad statements I have seen on this website and the sort of thinking that doesn't belong in Scotland and certainly not in the highlands . :(

What's an unreasonable viewpoint is to tell someone who's accurately described the current Scottish legal situation that they have no place in Scotland or the Highlands because they seem not to share your political beliefs or match your political rhetoric. :(
Moriarty
 
Posts: 437
Joined: Dec 15, 2013

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby Skyelines » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:56 am

Okay, so let's have a look at it from this perspective:

When I walk out my front door and on to the street or into the wilds I am on land that belongs to me and everyone else"
Sunset Tripper


One aspect of ownership is the right to do with it as one pleases.

If that is the case with something in multiple ownership then this is clearly a recipe for disaster, everyone does whatever they like.

In the case of multiple ownership the rights of the individual are reduced to that which maintains the rights of all owners.
It is the recognition that "someone else owns it" that determines how it is used.

Now if there are things that others do that I do not like,there must be things that I do that many of the other "owners" do not like.
As my right to enjoyment is the same as their's, and of course vice versa, then neither they nor I should do anything that may spoil the others enjoyment.

So if building a piles of stones or dropping litter spoils things for other "owners" I do not build or litter, if they do the same then we all share the same right of enjoyment.
Skyelines
Wanderer
 
Posts: 599
Joined: Jun 10, 2016

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby Sunset tripper » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:34 pm

Moriarty wrote:
Sunset tripper wrote:
Skyelines wrote:As soon as I leave the gate to my property I am on someone else's land that may be publicly or privately owned.

That's one of the most sad statements I have seen on this website and the sort of thinking that doesn't belong in Scotland and certainly not in the highlands . :(

What's an unreasonable viewpoint is to tell someone who's accurately described the current Scottish legal situation that they have no place in Scotland or the Highlands because they seem not to share your political beliefs or match your political rhetoric. :(


Sorry but I don't think you get what I mean, and it's easy to make a play on words which this thread has overdosed on.
I didn't see Skyelines statement as being a description of the legal situation but as a view that he must follow strict rules with out question. If no one had ever broke any rules or laws or fought against them Scotland would be a sorry place. Ask yourself why Scotland has by far the best access laws in the UK if not the world. Why are the other UK countries so far behind?
Of course I don't think anyone who fails to share my "political beliefs" or "political rhetoric" should be told they have no place in Scotland. But I do believe we can do without the mindset that has created the strict access laws in other places. Its my property so I can do what I like is not a view I share.
If it's unreasonable to point this out I don't really mind. :D

PS What about the kids sandcastles on the beach? Should we kick them over or tell them sternly not do do it again the same as if they had thrown an empty coke can in to the sea?
I'm not surprised there were no comments on this :wink:
User avatar
Sunset tripper
 
Posts: 2965
Joined: Nov 3, 2013
Location: Inverness

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby Moriarty » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:04 pm

Sunset tripper wrote:PS What about the kids sandcastles on the beach? Should we kick them over or tell them sternly not do do it again the same as if they had thrown an empty coke can in to the sea?
I'm not surprised there were no comments on this :wink:

Always best to avoid being distracted by Straw Man arguments.

You've managed to selectively ignore responding to the explanatory comments yourself. :wink:
Moriarty
 
Posts: 437
Joined: Dec 15, 2013

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby Nigels3011 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:05 pm

Even inside our own houses we are not free to do as we please. In all aspects of our lives in whatever we do and where ever we do it we must carry a sense of empathy. We cannot wander through life abandoning any sense of responsibility. We all know what's "right", right? Most of us have a filter which enables us to evaluate certain behaviours but there are still a lot of people who don't. It's a product of modern society, that a growing number of the population see as there right to turn off their personal filter and simply act as they please. Some even see upsetting anybody at random as a positive by-product of their selfish actions.
Whoops, I seem to have spilled too many words. Back to lurking.
User avatar
Nigels3011
Walker
 
Posts: 140
Munros:282   Corbetts:9
Fionas:6   
Hewitts:45
Wainwrights:37   Islands:3
Joined: Dec 16, 2013
Location: Bedfordshire

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby Skyelines » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:34 pm

I think this will be my final post on this topic.

It has been interesting to read everyone's comments and views. Thank you.

Back in the 1970's long before the Land Reform Act and other legislation established rights of access to open land (and no doubt before many readers of this were born) I walked and camped in the hills of Scotland, Wales and England.

At that time just being on someone else's land without permission would not necessarily have been a trespass, however if while on that land one did something that damaged the land or interfered with the owners rights then a trespass would have been committed. The probability of being caught was minimal and any court action unlikely, though in some places one might be shot at.

But this is not the main point.

The fact is that back then if I and the others who also walked the hills left evidence of our presence then it was more likely that the land owner(s) would do something to prevent the likes of us from going on their land.

By not leaving a trace of my presence meant that I would ensure my fellow walkers and campers would have the opportunity to do as I had done and walk and camp unhindered.

In these circumstances awareness of being on someone else's land and also respecting one's fellow walkers and campers by not doing anything that might compromise their easy access to the hills meant that no one left evidence of their presence in the hills and we all enjoyed the same uncluttered landscape.

Since the access legislation came into effect more damage has been done and more evidence of peoples presence has been left than in all the decades we were "not supposed to be there".

In some ways the "good old days" were better. :)
Skyelines
Wanderer
 
Posts: 599
Joined: Jun 10, 2016

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby PerthAlly » Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:02 pm

I'm shocked such a mundane subject can illicit 57 posts :D

I don't mind impromptu cairns, they mean something to someone .

So , just to be pedantic here's one from the Cairn O'Mount this morning. The totty wee stones on top will surely not survive the wind up there. The eagle eyed will notice the graffiti on one rock. Admittedly, that wasn't clever :shock:

Cairn O'Mount.jpg
User avatar
PerthAlly
Mountaineer
 
Posts: 371
Munros:145   Corbetts:15
Fionas:1   Donalds:5
Sub 2000:3   
Joined: Jul 23, 2014

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby CharlesT » Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:46 pm

PerthAlly wrote: The eagle eyed will notice the graffiti on one rock. Admittedly, that wasn't clever :shock:

Cairn O'Mount.jpg


Written by an American I suspect, the date's the wrong way round. :( Why didn't you bury it in the cairn? :roll:
User avatar
CharlesT
Mountaineer
 
Posts: 4502
Munros:156   Corbetts:2
Hewitts:262
Wainwrights:214   Islands:2
Joined: Dec 22, 2011
Location: West Oxfordshire

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby PerthAlly » Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:36 pm

Charles

Didn't notice the Americanism until I uploaded the photo.

As for burying the stone ....that thought only went through my pea sized brain as I approached Dundee ie 40 miles too late :(
User avatar
PerthAlly
Mountaineer
 
Posts: 371
Munros:145   Corbetts:15
Fionas:1   Donalds:5
Sub 2000:3   
Joined: Jul 23, 2014

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby Sgurr » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:53 pm

So have the icairnoclasts won?
User avatar
Sgurr
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 5679
Munros:282   Corbetts:222
Fionas:219   Donalds:89+52
Sub 2000:569   Hewitts:172
Wainwrights:214   Islands:58
Joined: Nov 15, 2010
Location: Fife

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby Landsoul » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:18 pm

Skyelines wrote:As soon as I leave the gate to my property I am on someone else's land that may be publicly or privately owned.
I therefore have a responsibility firstly to the owners to only do such things as I am permitted to do by law or by permission of the owner and secondly to all who may legitimately have access to that land for their utility and enjoyment.


You obviously don't understand freedom in Scotland. I feel sad for you that you feel the need apply 'rules' to enjoying being outdoors.
Landsoul
 
Posts: 35
Munros:282   
Joined: Jul 31, 2016
Location: Inverness

Re: Piles of Stones

Postby CharlesT » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:33 pm

Landsoul wrote:
Skyelines wrote:As soon as I leave the gate to my property I am on someone else's land that may be publicly or privately owned.
I therefore have a responsibility firstly to the owners to only do such things as I am permitted to do by law or by permission of the owner and secondly to all who may legitimately have access to that land for their utility and enjoyment.


You obviously don't understand freedom in Scotland. I feel sad for you that you feel the need apply 'rules' to enjoying being outdoors.


Surely freedom is a relative concept bounded by the societal norms and precepts governing the domain within which it is exercised. It is granted by society at large to its individual members on condition it is exercised responsibly and within those bounds. Any "rules" are solely codifications of this, more properly described as generally accepted practice or in some cases laws.
User avatar
CharlesT
Mountaineer
 
Posts: 4502
Munros:156   Corbetts:2
Hewitts:262
Wainwrights:214   Islands:2
Joined: Dec 22, 2011
Location: West Oxfordshire

PreviousNext



Can you help support Walkhighlands?


Our forum is free from adverts - your generosity keeps it running.
Can you help support Walkhighlands and this community by donating by direct debit?



Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests