Hill Rage - A cautionary tale

[Skyelines]

Just pointing out others may view things differently, not arbitrating anything, just provoking thought.

But that's not what you wrote (whether you meant to or not).

You seemed to suggest that anyone walking past a rucksack doesn't care for anyone else on the hill, which is just not true in my experience and some might consider to be more than a little judgmental. Yes, my post was sarcastic and facetious - have you never seen any of them before ?

The point I was (badly) making was that if one has concern for others of the hill the questions posed would come to mind but if one didn't then those questions would not be an issue.

The problem is in what an "abandoned" rucksack could mean.

It seems to me that the "angry man" had a bit of internal conflict about what he should do about the sack and its owner and would appear to have been concerned for him/her.
However his internal conflict seems to have been taken out on the owner when he discovered the situation didn't meet his "rules" about what should be done on the hills.

[LeithySuburbs]

The point I was (badly) making was that if one has concern for others of the hill the questions posed would come to mind but if one didn't then those questions would not be an issue.

I still don't agree with that. If I see an unattended rucksack I would - almost certainly correctly - assume it's owner had left it there to nip up to a nearby summit (or for some other reason I couldn't care less about). I certainly wouldn't think about your questions (although that may change after this thread ).

I think RTC just met a moron and moronette and we shouldn't extrapolate anything from that other than such people do exist but are, fortunately, in the minority (except, perhaps, in certain areas of Holyrood and Westminster).

[Gareth Harper]

On a different note, at Angle Tarn I spied a guy who looked in his 80s walking about totally starkers carrying walking poles.

Hamish Broon used to frequently walk naked in warm weather, though I think he was pretty confident he wisnae gonna bump into anybody.

If the sack (or often as not sacks multiple, with two or three companions doing the same thing) is left neatly on a col or ridge junction beside a cairn or an outcrop where it's easily findable (to try and avoid the sudden-cloud problem mentioned earlier), then surely it's obvious what going on

A possible suicide pact! Help ma boab!

Whit aboot tents? An empty tent on the hill and naebody aboot?

However, it seems that my rucksack had definitely been searched as the woman knew that my wallet, credit cards, etc were in it.

That would have really peeved me off. Yup I too sometimes leave my pack and wander off for a while and I would not be best pleased if I later found somebody had been through it's contents.

[Dave Hewitt]

Re the weird suicide anxiety, my better half wonders whether it's possible that the angry man and his angry wife might have known someone who once went up a hill and committed suicide leaving a rucksack behind. Unlikely however - and even if it was the case it doesn't excuse their behaviour on Monday.

That would have really peeved me off. Yup I too sometimes leave my pack and wander off for a while and I would not be best pleased if I later found somebody had been through it's contents.

As I think I might have mentioned on here before, when I was writing the watershed book in the early 1990s I was quite often in the map room in the Mitchell Library in Glasgow. One day I was working away and then went to the loo, returning to find a reasonably well-known hill author (whom I'd never met before) raking through my stuff. He proceeded to give me a bit of a lecture (in hushed tones of course, it being a library) about how I shouldn't be mentioning bothies in a book. I seem to recall I was quite polite with him, and we chatted generally for a few minutes, but I wasn't very impressed. Haven't encountered him from that day to this.

[NickyRannoch]

Of course if you don't care about anybody else on the hills but yourself it is not a problem, just walk on by.

Thanks for clearing that up in such black and white terms - I'm reassured to know that there are people out there to arbitrate judgement on such issues. I'll make sure to bring your 5 point checklist next time I'm out for a walk.

Just pointing out others may view things differently, not arbitrating anything, just provoking thought.

There has been a huge change in the culture surrounding outdoor activities over the last 50 years. In fact between the 60s and the 80s the major change had taken place. Many new entrants to the activities came via outdoor centres and "adventure" providers who were portraying things in a different way. The old perspectives and culture were forgotten and skills of self reliance and responsibility were abandoned for a new "health and safety" backup approach.

So many of the younger (as in 40 and under), who came to hillwalking this way see things differently.
If something doesn't fit within their framework something must be wrong, and so to them if you do something different you must be clearly irresponsible.

I miss the old ways and the days when the hills were empty except for those who shared a common understanding of the history and culture of the hills. (I don't miss the old heavy soaking wet canvas tent and rucksack, the steamy waterproofs, the brass Primus and the paraffin although it never bothered us at the time)

Thank goodness myself and my pals got into hillwalking in the noughties and so don't recognise any of the nonsense above.

I do and will continue to leave my pack around. It's not even a debate, you ran into a dick - could happen anywhere.

[jupe1407]

This thread got rather esoteric rather quickly.

Clearly the aggressor and his companion were simply a pair of w***ers.

[Glyno]

Concern for the owner! Lets get down to brass tacks. He made a move towards me [the owner] and was definitely thinking about giving me a thump. [OK. I can't prove this!] If the other couple hadn't been around I think he might actually have hit me. He can stick his "internal conflict" up his bahoochie. I hope he was married to the woman who went through my rucksack. He certainly deserved to be. There you go! I feel a lot better for that!

You have my total respect. From what I gather, you handled a difficult situation very well.
You were probably very unfortunate in that you ran into a right pillock who'd had a bit too much sun and was spoiling for a fight - you probably ruined his day. Well done.
He most likely carried on being a pillock on his drive home.

[Sunset tripper]

There has been a huge change in the culture surrounding outdoor activities over the last 50 years. In fact between the 60s and the 80s the major change had taken place. Many new entrants to the activities came via outdoor centres and "adventure" providers who were portraying things in a different way. The old perspectives and culture were forgotten and skills of self reliance and responsibility were abandoned for a new "health and safety" backup approach.

So many of the younger (as in 40 and under), who came to hillwalking this way see things differently.
If something doesn't fit within their framework something must be wrong, and so to them if you do something different you must be clearly irresponsible.

I miss the old ways and the days when the hills were empty except for those who shared a common understanding of the history and culture of the hills. (I don't miss the old heavy soaking wet canvas tent and rucksack, the steamy waterproofs, the brass Primus and the paraffin although it never bothered us at the time)

Skyelines nothing wrong with looking back to the good old days but you have to remember there was folk out on the hills long before you who had to build a campfire for cooking and didn't have the luxury of the brass primus and the paraffin and other luxuries you might have had, and they might have frowned upon your hill going ways in their later years. There will always be change but it doesn't have to be a bad thing and you can learn a lot from the under 40s
I have to say I have never met anyone who got into hillwalking/wandering via outdoor centres or adventure groups.

[Lightfoot2017]

Funniest thread in AGES!

[Sunset tripper]

Was thinking about the suicide bomber angle. It would have to be a very incompetent or not very dedicated suicide bomber who forgets to take his rucksack with him.

[CharlesT]

Extraordinary behaviour! Can't help wondering if the enraged individual might be a reader and if he would dare venture to explain himself.

My other thought was on how long my sack might have lain unremarked upon below Am Basteir before my non -return provoked interest.

[gavinlyoung]

As one of the other couple who suffered the same abusive tongue lashing as RTC a few days ago I can only say I was amazed and saddened. I am 66 .My first hill was Goat Fell aged 8 so I've had 58 years of hills and have often left my sac while I did an " out and back " top and have never been reprimanded , even politely.. This time I was apparently a " f------ a---- hole ". I still do not understand why the couple ( Yorkshire/Lancashire voices- sorry I cannot distinguish!) were so enraged but it was an unhappy moment and they even swore in front of my wife and my dog- both of whom considered this appalling behaviour. We were glad to have RTC's company for the rest of the day.
The enraged pair claimed to have walked the hills for 30 years and never come across folk leaving their sacs.
However, I take a point. Maybe I will carry a label." Please leave - back very soon".
Oh, I almost forgot . The other reason Messrs Angry and Enraged were so angry and enraged was that we might have left a bomb in the sac. Well, a) it would have detonated when they went through the bags, b) I think it unlikely an Islamist, or any other variety of terrorist would bother to penetrate into Martindale and climb a mountain just to kill the odd raven.

[Andy J]

I think you handled this person's unreasonable behaviour very well.

In my experience, leaving a rucksack to nip up to a summit is relatively uncommon in the English hills(*) - in fact I don't recall ever seeing left packs in the Lake District. So a total guess, but it may be the guy jumped to a wrong conclusion due to lack of experience and then felt unable to acknowledge his mistake. As we all know, some people use aggression to avoid admitting to themselves that they've made an error. It might also be that he is the sort of man who likes to go into "hero mode" in the presence of women and, having created a crisis situation entirely in his imagination, that made it even harder for him to back down. None of that justifies what he did, though.

I find that actual violent bullies are rare in the mountains: they aren't willing to make the effort required to go there.

(* Just to be clear, I'm not implying that you did anything wrong by leaving your packs)

[garyoppolis]

Was thinking about the suicide bomber angle. It would have to be a very incompetent or not very dedicated suicide bomber who forgets to take his rucksack with him.

I recall a "patrolling" competition in a certain part of Wales a number of years ago, one of the features of which was the carrying of very heavy packs - 40-50kg.

Setting off in the dark, a member of one of our fellow Scottish university teams seemed to be having a particularly easy time of it while his teammates were sweating and panting along. However, when they stopped for a rest after about 10km he realised that, unlike the rest of his team, he didn't have anything to sit on - the realisation slowly dawning that his 40+kg bag way sitting at the side of a forestry track 10km away.

The rest of the team were not impressed...

[mrssanta]

[ By contrast, someone else "retrieving" it could well lead to serious problems when the owner returns and finds it not there - and I'm not sure many of the MRT members I know would be very impressed by someone bringing down someone else's rucksack in this way..

Something like this happened to Rudolph at the start of a DofE expedition a few years ago. He put his rucksack down at the meet-up place and popped back to his car 50 metres away for more stuff, when he got back the rucksack was gone. It had in it all the compasses for the teams to use on their expedition.
It transpired that a member of the public had taken it to the local Polis station. When we managed to get hold of them they told us it had just left in a van 30 seconds earlier to go to the main Lost Property office 10 miles away. The van was driving all round the local offices and he would have to pick it up in person in the afternoon. So not only did we have no compasses but we had to lose a leader to go get them back.
If the concerned member of the public had waited for about one minute, none of this would have happened!