Bulls.

[rgf101]

You have every right to be concerned but am going to throw a slight curve ball here,take Ben Nevis owned by John Muir Trust,there is very little signage warning of the dangers on the way to the top,path does not get gritted when ice and snow are about,uneven path which you could trip and injure one's self and various other problems,this is being written tongue in cheek but JMT are responsible landowners also so where do you draw the line.

You draw the line at what's reasonable and proportionate. Helicoptering bags of grit up the Ben every winter's day is neither. Telling people where the bull can be found is both.

[Giant Stoneater]

You have every right to be concerned but am going to throw a slight curve ball here,take Ben Nevis owned by John Muir Trust,there is very little signage warning of the dangers on the way to the top,path does not get gritted when ice and snow are about,uneven path which you could trip and injure one's self and various other problems,this is being written tongue in cheek but JMT are responsible landowners also so where do you draw the line.

You draw the line at what's reasonable and proportionate. Helicoptering bags of grit up the Ben every winter's day is neither. Telling people where the bull can be found is both.

Depends on what you think reasonable and proportionate is,100 people going through a field or 600 to 1000 people going up Ben Nevis.

[Border Reiver]

I would never rely on any signage to help me decide about the presence of bulls. Farm animals are regularly moved from field to field and some of the less helpful farmers put up warning signs even when there are no bulls present. In my experience cows are more likely to either attack you or charge at you and stop short than bulls are. We once walked on a path right through a herd of cattle, (cows, bull and calves) and within 20m of the bull - and none of them stirred. I judged that they were OK before passing through. A mile further on some walkers with dogs loose had been through a herd of cows (no bull) and the cattle were obviously highly agitated. We chose to avoid that field altogether.
Many farmers are from generations of farmers and run their farms their own way. It may not be the way that modern agricultural colleges tell students that farms should be run, but there's a vast difference between a lecturer in a warm classroom telling students what they should do and the real world where it rains and snows and animals die and tractors break down. Give those guys a break sometimes and if you bother to stop for a chat they'll happily spend some time giving you advice on the best routes. My wife is nervous of cattle and once we encountered a large herd that she was unwilling to go through. I had a scout around and found the farmer. He told me that we could have gone a different route (which he pointed out), but he brought his tractor and gave my wife a lift through the herd of cattle. He proved to be a really decent person & the only harm done was to my a**e when I backed into an electric fence that was hidden in long grass. It was my fault and it didn't warrant another warning sign.
We go to the countryside to enjoy it, have a bit adventure and be able to decide for ourselves the level of risk in each situation - it's called getting experience. We don't need or want signs (which may or may not be appropriate) to tell us that a wonky bridge many be dangerous, that a boulderfield may be uneven, that a stile may be slippery when wet or that there may or may not be a bull ahead. We do our own risk assessment constantly and make our own decisions and wouldn't appreciate the nanny state inflicting a plethora of warning signs on the countryside.

[Scottk]

It's definitely not wrong for the bull to be there. Land owners have a reasonable right to use the land. A farmer having a bull is reasonable. The public can access any field as long as they don't damage crops or cause distress (think lambing season). It is not reasonable for a farmer to keep animals away from every person who may possibly cross the land. Walkers must take some responsibility for their actions.
In this case it sounds like the farmer may not appreciate how busy the path is or is just belligerent to walkers!
Don't know if any of you saw the country file programme on Balmoral but there was a young bull scratching itself on the tractor and the tractor was moving!

[crfishwick]

I am afraid you seem to have a phobia! Farmers do take their responsibilities seriously!

Did it attack you? NO.

What is the problem? Your phobia.

I'm actually not sure if you are being sarcastic or not?

I doubt it, it is a common fallacy to claim there is no problem with a dangerous situation if something very bad didn't happen, ignoring the potential danger, and the fact that someone else following could be less fortunater. You hear this sort of 'logic' from people who claim that cyclists shouldn't complain abnout motorists passing them with two inches clearance at 50 mph, because if they didn't hit them, what's the problem.

Dangerous! Logic! Speaks volumes. A bull goring you is in peoples mind. How many have been? You are more likely to be run over by a car nowadays.

Health and safety officer are you?

[Ben Nachie]

It does happen.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pensioner-killed-by-highland-cow-while-on-family-holiday-in-scottish-village-102328.html%3famp

[BobMcBob]

You have every right to be concerned but am going to throw a slight curve ball here,take Ben Nevis owned by John Muir Trust,there is very little signage warning of the dangers on the way to the top,path does not get gritted when ice and snow are about,uneven path which you could trip and injure one's self and various other problems,this is being written tongue in cheek but JMT are responsible landowners also so where do you draw the line.

That's not a valid comparison. When walking in the hills you have a reasonable expectation that the farmer has kept his dangerous animals fenced in. There is very little you personally can do to enforce this or protect yourself against it. On the other hand there is a great deal you yourself can do personally to protect yourself against tripping, ice, snow etc. Those are things you have a reasonable expectation of coming across. It's about sharing the responsibility for safety, not putting all the onus on one side or another. I know your argument is tongue in cheek but it's ideas like that that have made health and safety legislation the morass of petty stupidity it is today.

[Alteknacker]

This backs up what I'd understood from farmers, which is that most accidents with cattle involve farmers or farm workers.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/meetings/iacs/aiac/090615/aiac-paper-150601.pdf

[NickyRannoch]

Depends on the breed and what other cattle were in the field.

Where specifically was the incident? If the bull was on the summit of Craigowl, approach to Auchterhouse or in Balkello woods there might be an issue.

If I was a betting man I would put a quid on that you were climbing Craigowl from Coldstream?

[Glengavel]

This backs up what I'd understood from farmers, which is that most accidents with cattle involve farmers or farm workers.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/meetings/iacs/aiac/090615/aiac-paper-150601.pdf

No doubt. My dad's cousin, who'd worked with cattle all his life, ended up in hospital with bruised and broken ribs when a bull he was walking through a shed casually rubbed itself up against a wall. And cows can be worse than bulls; in the BBC series 'This Farming Life', the cattle farmers were wary of cows with new-born calves but more blasé around two tons of prime beef.

[Jon and Jen]

Depends on the breed and what other cattle were in the field.

Where specifically was the incident? If the bull was on the summit of Craigowl, approach to Auchterhouse or in Balkello woods there might be an issue.

If I was a betting man I would put a quid on that you were climbing Craigowl from Coldstream?

The bull was on Keillor hill after Lundie Craigs. The sign was on the gate leading into Newtyle hill.

[NickyRannoch]

Depends on the breed and what other cattle were in the field.

Where specifically was the incident? If the bull was on the summit of Craigowl, approach to Auchterhouse or in Balkello woods there might be an issue.

If I was a betting man I would put a quid on that you were climbing Craigowl from Coldstream?

The bull was on Keillor hill after Lundie Craigs. The sign was on the gate leading into Newtyle hill.

Very unusual to see cattle there. Plenty sheep but not a bull.

As i said the definitive answer is breed and other cattle present dependent.

Worth writing to PKC and Angus access officers as that ridge is the border between the two.

There is a very well defined footpath there, although not a core path, so if it was on the paths then that is an issue. If it was on one of the fields on the lower slopes there should be signs on the access gates.

[davekeiller]

Reading the HSE guidance that someone linked to, it seems that it depends on the breed of the bull, whether there were cows in the field and whether you were on a right of way. My understanding of the HSE guidance is that if there is a right of way in the field, then bulls from dairy breeds are banned, but bulls from beef breeds are OK if accompanied by cows.
I can understand your frustration: you saw a sign alerting you to the potential danger posed by a bull in the field so you detoured around the field to avoid the hazard and mitigate the risk only to find that said bull was in a completely different field with no sign warning you of the hazard. On this occasion, the bull didn't attack (thankfully such events are rare) but you feel that you took an unnecessary risk because you weren't provided with adequate information.
If you feel strongly enough, you could contact the relevant department at the local council, although I daresay there's not much that they can realistically do.

[NickyRannoch]

The HSE guidance is for England and Wales. It's a bit more complicated in Scotland due to the access laws and the much more wide ranging right of responsible access in Scotland.

[davekeiller]

Actually, the title of the HSE guidance that was linked to specifically states that it applies to Scotland.
IF there is a right of way crossing the field, then bulls of dairy breeds are banned and bulls of other breeds may only be in the field if there are also cows in the field.
This applies to all enclosed fields to which the public have statutory rights of access, although it doesn't apply to open hillsides or unenclosed moorland.