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Winter Traverse Cairngorms

Re: Winter Traverse Cairngorms

Postby The_Real_SF » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:42 pm

davekeiller wrote:I'm a bit concerned by the fact you say you're definitely going to ascend Ben Macdui and descend via Linn of Dee, as conditions simply might not be suitable.
It feels like you don't have much experience of Scottish Winter, and this feels a bit too ambitious unless you *really* know what you're doing.
I think you'd be best off basing yourself in Aviemore or Braemar for a week and doing day walks to build up experience in Scottish Winter conditions before embarking on a trip like this. Perhaps do a week's winter skills course at Glenmore Lodge (or Plas Y Brenin or similar) this winter, and do your big trip next winter?


You are taking that out of context (and you know it). Of course I won't press on with a blatantly dangerous approach route. :roll:
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Re: Winter Traverse Cairngorms

Postby The_Real_SF » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:46 pm

Caberfeidh wrote:I would advise waiting until February, as the daylight hours are much less in December and January. Weather too is likely to be gales and rain in December and January rather than good frost and snow in February (though please don't blame me if the reverse is true!). The Lairig Ghru is terrible for brutal wind conditions even when the weather is good on either side of the narrow part of the pass. Trekking and camping around the area now, before going in winter, is good for familiarising yourself with the area. The route from Lairig ghru over the shoulder of Cairn a Mhaim and passing Derry Lodge is far preferable to the route following the River Dee past the White Bridge, due to exposure to the elements on the long, wide, flat plain which is by the river and White Bridge. Bothies and shelter are available at Corrour in the open, east side of the Lairig Ghru, Bob Scott's (downstream from Derry Lodge, follow the river to it rather than the landrover track), Glen Feshie (Ruadh Aithechen bothy), The Shelter Stone at Loch A'an (spelled Avon on maps), Fords of A'an Bothy (really just a rough shelter, not somewhere cosy), Ryvoan Bothy near Glen More Lodge, and the remote and rough An Garbh Corrie shelter which is again just a shelter to get in out of the wind, not somewhere to aim for to spend the night. Any passes and areas beneath steep slopes/cliffs are subject to avalanche and stonefall. Enjoy!



Great photos and insight - thank you. Much appreciated.

To be honest, about 50% of the responses on here are just tiresome nonsense. Thanks for some great example images and solid guidance.
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Re: Winter Traverse Cairngorms

Postby The_Real_SF » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:49 pm

walkingpoles wrote:I didn't expect people who are ready to do a winter traverse of the Cairngorms to ask for advise here.


:roll: :roll: I am an expert in many fields and still go to forums regarding those fields to check my thinking and ensure I am not convincing myself of something drastic. Are you telling me that the qualification for safely negotiating the outdoors is never asking anything on a forum? Sure. OK.
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Re: Winter Traverse Cairngorms

Postby davekeiller » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:26 pm

I think that Walkingpoles and I (and probably others) are just a bit concerned that some of your questions demonstrate a lack of familiarity with Scottish winter conditions, and the Cairngorms in particular.
We don't want to encourage you to embark on something that's beyond your abilities and risk getting yourself into serious trouble because people can and do die in Scotland's mountains in winter. If you think that's tiresome nonsense, then that's up to you. My advice to you would be to go on a winter skills course (and possibly also an avalanche awareness course) if you haven't already, and to spend some time in the Cairngorms in winter to get to know the area and the terrain before attempting a solo winter traverse.
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Re: Winter Traverse Cairngorms

Postby walkingpoles » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:26 pm

The_Real_SF wrote:To be honest, about 50% of the responses on here are just tiresome nonsense. Thanks for some great example images and solid guidance.


Sure, insulting half the people that took care to answer your questions is better than considering that your first post might be hard to interpret correctly. This forum is populated by highly helpful people. If you consider half the answers to be nonsense, it has more to do with the way you asked for advise.

The_Real_SF wrote: Are you telling me that the qualification for safely negotiating the outdoors is never asking anything on a forum? Sure. OK.


No, I'm not. But I expect people that plan such a winter traverse to be more familiar with some things than you appear to be.

Your first post makes some alarm bells ringing. Up to you to decide, whether this is justified. Every winter some people die in the Highlands. I understand perfectly that the answers you get are on the defensive side.
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Re: Winter Traverse Cairngorms

Postby The_Real_SF » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:13 am

walkingpoles wrote:
Sure, insulting half the people that took care to answer your questions is better than considering that your first post might be hard to interpret correctly. This forum is populated by highly helpful people. If you consider half the answers to be nonsense, it has more to do with the way you asked for advise.


Maybe they are helpful. But not in this case. My post was not hard to interpret on two other forums. It was not hard to interpret by those that amswered in the spirit of the question. It is only hard to interpret by those wanting to impose their faux concern onto a fairly routine question tbh.

walkingpoles wrote:
No, I'm not. But I expect people that plan such a winter traverse to be more familiar with some things than you appear to be.

Your first post makes some alarm bells ringing. Up to you to decide, whether this is justified. Every winter some people die in the Highlands. I understand perfectly that the answers you get are on the defensive side.


Did you read someone asking you for permission? Did I ask you to assess me? Are you one of my parents?

If you don't want to answer then don't but I asked a relatively straight forward series of questions with technical and emperical answers. I don't care if all the alarm bells in the world started ringing. Your fake concern is of no consequence. I have seen people at the summit of Alpine summits that chose to get up there unprepared. Sir Chris Bonnington regularly walked up Snowdon in flip flops and told all of the concern trolls to politely f-off when they tried to chastise him.

It is not your job to police the wilderness. If you don't want to answer my questions then don't. But I am all set without your personal judgememt, thanks. And that goes for the other individuals writing stuff like "I don't want to be responsible for a fatality"; you don't have to be. Don't reply at all.

To everyone all else who took the time to describe conditions and post videos and walk reports, I am extremely grateful.
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Re: Winter Traverse Cairngorms

Postby Caberfeidh » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:30 am

Oh, there will always be those who warn against Grumpkins and Snarks, and all the Bogles of the wilderness.I just assume that all the usual caveats apply so I'll tell you what you want to know. How else would we gain experience if we don't go and find out? I find that notion of training courses is one fraught with impending disaster, and a bit of paper showing a person has done a course is no good for anything but lighting the fire or wiping your bum. Though gorse and moss are better, though not interchangeable, for those two tasks. If there is deep snow in the glens then stay up high where the wind has blown the snow off the gravel and rocks of the high ridges and plateau. If going between Loch Etchachan and Loch A'an, stay high up and off the smooth snow field as it hides deep water holes. The Lairig Ghru also has deep water holes which can trap the unwary. This is why hiking around the place before the snows come is good for giving you insight into the lie of the land, the routes through the hills, and where the bothies are. Read maps like others read magazines. But then you probably already do.

Derry Woods.JPG
Derry Woods, Bob Scott's bothy is hidden in the trees, lower right.


Glen Luibeag Deer#r.jpg
Deer moving in lines through deep snow, Luibeg


Lairig Ghru winter#3 R.jpg
Lairig Ghru


carncrom#1r.jpg
Carn Crom, near Derry Lodge


Scotties 1989#2r.jpg
Bob Scott's back in the 1980s. It has burned down and been rebuilt since.


013 (2)reindeer at Ryvoan#r.jpg
Reindeer at Ryvoan ~don't feed them!


Spies Like Us #2r.jpg
Wear clothing appropriate for the conditions...


Big Grey Man o' Ben MacDui.jpg
Big Grey Man O' Ben MacDui
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Re: Winter Traverse Cairngorms

Postby al78 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:40 pm

Caberfeidh wrote:Oh, there will always be those who warn against Grumpkins and Snarks, and all the Bogles of the wilderness.I just assume that all the usual caveats apply so I'll tell you what you want to know. How else would we gain experience if we don't go and find out? I find that notion of training courses is one fraught with impending disaster, and a bit of paper showing a person has done a course is no good for anything but lighting the fire or wiping your bum.


I don't agree. If you don't have experience in an activity which is way above what you are used too in terms of risk and vulnerability, it is a good idea to do some research on it, including reading other reports of similar activities, so you get an idea of what you are up against. It is the same with me trying to gain some scrambling experience. I wouldn't start trying to do the Skye Cullins, but start with grade 1 scrambles, work up to grade 2, then, if I feel I want to go further, look at grade 3. Accidents happen because people are badly equipped, badly prepared, or have big egos and can't bring themselves to turn back if conditions deteriorate. When it comes down to it, the higher Scottish mountains in winter are Arctic-like in climate, and need respect.

I don't know why you diss training courses. I haven't been on such a course, but you can at least learn useful, or even necessary techniques on such a course, as well as gaining some knowledge. When I was at uni, I went on winter mountaineering weekends in Scotland and I picked up a fair bit of knowledge about crampons and boot compatibiility, ice axe arrest, avalanche awareness, and how to move upslope over snow and ice, and the activity itself gave me an insight as to how different it is on the summits in winter than in summer. I now know what a proper whiteout is.
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Re: Winter Traverse Cairngorms

Postby davekeiller » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:05 pm

I agree with you Al, training courses are a useful way to learn what you can't get from a book and of practising skills in a controlled environment. They're not the only way to learn, but they certainly have a useful place.
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Re: Winter Traverse Cairngorms

Postby prog99 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:03 pm

I thought someone had attempted something similar on here a few years ago, took a while to find.

https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=38199&p=220045#p220045

Plenty of lessons to learn from it.

They planned a repeat performance with a pulk a few years later...
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