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Visitor Tax

Re: Visitor Tax

Postby Sunset tripper » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:05 pm

jupe1407 wrote:Without wishing to be accused of witchcraft, I have absolutely no issue with wind energy/windfarms, they are a not-completely-ideal answer to a question which really has no right answer. Obviously siting should be within reason, but I'm unsure what folk would suggest as an alternative. In fact I'd be quite curious.


There is only one answer and it is population control. The world can't build wind farms, hydro schemes or any other renewables fast enough to stop the emmisions from increasing. The problem is you can't tell people to stop having kids. David Attenborough explained the problem a few years back but it is a very unpopular subject and gets little coverage :shock:

http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

65 million extra folk on planet earth this year already. :shock:

Sorry off topic also. :D
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Re: Visitor Tax

Postby al78 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:58 am

Sack the Juggler wrote:But why stop at a tourism tax, why not have a wildlife tax (a tax on the number of birds or animals you see), and sun tax (a tax on the number of sunny days in the month), a bathing tax (for when you go skinny dipping in Loch Lomond), or a deep fried Mars Bar tax to fund the additional NHS costs of treating those who eat them? Ok, some of those were a little tongue in cheek (... is there a tax for that too?) but charging tourists a tax for the pleasure of coming to spend money in a community seems to be a self defeating objective.


I don't think you understand the point of a tax like this. It is because (apparently) high numbers of tourists are imparting costs on those who live there, and the tax is supposed to be a way of funding the mitigation of those costs. Your analogies, tongue in cheek or not, don't work. Sun is not a cost inflicted by tourists. Skinny dipping in Loch Lomond does not inflict a cost on other people or the landscape. Eating a deep fried Mars bar does not inflict a cost on anyone except possibly to the consumer, and if you start going down the road of people paying for healthcare if they engage in unhealthy lifestyle choices, then you end up on a slippery slope, such as people paying for rescue services when they need carrying off a mountain because they were inadequately prepared, not to mention that you cannot say that consuming one deep fried Mars bar caused a health condition in the future (any more than you can say that climate change caused a record wet week in Scotland).

If people who live in remote areas are bothered by overcrowding caused by tourists, a few months of living in the SE should help them put things in perspective. Having to form an orderly queue when driving because someone wants to turn right and has to wait for a gap in the oncoming convoy; going for a nice pub lunch on a sunny summer Sunday and having to wait two hours for service because EVERYONE ELSE wants to do the same and establishments can't be bothered to employ adequate staff; being packed onto commuter trains so densely that it is in danger of collapsing into a black hole; going to the bank or post office and having to wait bloody ages, again, because the queue is out of the door and there is only one desk open; going fo a nice bike ride on the minor roads and constantly being buzzed by the teeny tiny road club rat-running around bottlenecks on the main roads. Yes, if any of you moaners living in the Scottish highlands wants to swap places with me for a year or so, bring it on.
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Re: Visitor Tax

Postby Sack the Juggler » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:20 am

al78 wrote:
Sack the Juggler wrote:But why stop at a tourism tax, why not have a wildlife tax (a tax on the number of birds or animals you see), and sun tax (a tax on the number of sunny days in the month), a bathing tax (for when you go skinny dipping in Loch Lomond), or a deep fried Mars Bar tax to fund the additional NHS costs of treating those who eat them? Ok, some of those were a little tongue in cheek (... is there a tax for that too?) but charging tourists a tax for the pleasure of coming to spend money in a community seems to be a self defeating objective.


I don't think you understand the point of a tax like this. It is because (apparently) high numbers of tourists are imparting costs on those who live there, and the tax is supposed to be a way of funding the mitigation of those costs. Your analogies, tongue in cheek or not, don't work. Sun is not a cost inflicted by tourists. Skinny dipping in Loch Lomond does not inflict a cost on other people or the landscape. Eating a deep fried Mars bar does not inflict a cost on anyone except possibly to the consumer, and if you start going down the road of people paying for healthcare if they engage in unhealthy lifestyle choices, then you end up on a slippery slope, such as people paying for rescue services when they need carrying off a mountain because they were inadequately prepared, not to mention that you cannot say that consuming one deep fried Mars bar caused a health condition in the future (any more than you can say that climate change caused a record wet week in Scotland).

If people who live in remote areas are bothered by overcrowding caused by tourists, a few months of living in the SE should help them put things in perspective. Having to form an orderly queue when driving because someone wants to turn right and has to wait for a gap in the oncoming convoy; going for a nice pub lunch on a sunny summer Sunday and having to wait two hours for service because EVERYONE ELSE wants to do the same and establishments can't be bothered to employ adequate staff; being packed onto commuter trains so densely that it is in danger of collapsing into a black hole; going to the bank or post office and having to wait bloody ages, again, because the queue is out of the door and there is only one desk open; going fo a nice bike ride on the minor roads and constantly being buzzed by the teeny tiny road club rat-running around bottlenecks on the main roads. Yes, if any of you moaners living in the Scottish highlands wants to swap places with me for a year or so, bring it on.
I do understand the point of this tax, I just don't agree with it.

Yes if Edinburgh is over congested and they are sick of tourists then slap at tax on the tourists to keep the numbers down, a la Barca, however I'm not sure that the tourist industry in the rest of Scotland are trying to deter visitors. And even if it were only a small charge to begin with, it would rise as sure as eggs is eggs. And as you say, its the thin end of the wedge....

Perhaps you should try a tourist tax in the SE, or maybe call it a congestion charge.... actually I think that did work on the roads in London, now only if they'd thought to improve the railways with the money they raised....
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Re: Visitor Tax

Postby Paul Webster » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:29 am

Nicky Rannoch wrote:A tourist tax should be about raising income for infrastructure in the local area but I appreciate should is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.


Nicky Rannoch wrote:I would argue your point that it is a flat tax. In Europe it is 5% of your stay so 20 quid a night in a hostel is £1 and £200 a night in Gleneagles is £10.


Sorry to be so slow to come back. If that was right I'd be encouraged marginally, but my understanding is that what is proposed is indeed a flat tax (the most regressive sort) of £2 per night, and also the money will just go to general council funds to pay for things we already ought to be paying for, not specifically to benefit visitors.

I live in the Highlands and it's obvious that the council doesn't have enough funds at the moment to pay for the services we need - and this probably is true across the country. There's going to be nowhere to go to the loo soon :shock: :lol: - and we locals need these things as much as visitors.

But I'd argue we need to better fund them from having a more realistic level of taxes on ourselves, based on ability to pay, rather than increasing the already relatively high taxes we have on visitors which may penalise the worse off and act as a deterrent to the tourism we need. It's already an expensive place to holiday, and tourism from overseas counts as an export for Scotland (in that it brings cash from outside our economy into it).
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Re: Visitor Tax

Postby LeithySuburbs » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:59 am

I'm a bit torn with this one...

As a resident of Edinburgh, I can see the attraction of a visitor tax and I don't think it would make much difference to the numbers of people coming. However, I don't agree with a flat rate tax - a percentage seems much fairer if there is to be one.

However, I wouldn't trust Edinburgh Council to run a picnic. They can find millions of £s to waste on fireworks, trams, road narrowing schemes etc. but can't afford to collect garden waste or clean the streets. They are a disgrace. I am sure other council tax payers across Scotland have similar views on their own local authorities.

Were such a charge to be introduced in Edinburgh (and I think it would be here first - were it to be sanctioned), I can't see how it would not - in time - be rolled out across the country. Would such a tax be detrimental? - I'm not sure anyone really knows the answer to that.

So, I guess I don't disagree with "a" tax in principle, but can't support anything run by CEC.
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Re: Visitor Tax

Postby Sunset tripper » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:22 am

Sack the Juggler wrote:Perhaps you should try a tourist tax in the SE, or maybe call it a congestion charge.... actually I think that did work on the roads in London, now only if they'd thought to improve the railways with the money they raised....

Yes a very good point. It's no coincidence that the SE, one of the the areas in Europe with the greatest personal wealth has some of the worst transport infrastructure. :wink:

al78 wrote: Yes, if any of you moaners living in the Scottish highlands wants to swap places with me for a year or so, bring it on.

The South East isn't all bad (they've got Arsenal after all) but I have no desire to live there even with the lure of filthy lucre. :D
Though I have no problem with you coming to live in the highlands as long as you don't try and change it in to the place you left behind. :D
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Re: Visitor Tax

Postby Sack the Juggler » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:26 am

LeithySuburbs wrote:I wouldn't trust Edinburgh Council to run a picnic.
This is my main issue with local taxes and local government in general. Don't get me wrong its also my main issue with national taxes and national governments, but adding additional layers of taxes is never a good thing, as no matter how much you give them, it will never be enough.
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Re: Visitor Tax

Postby Giant Stoneater » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:39 am

LeithySuburbs wrote:I'm a bit torn with this one...

As a resident of Edinburgh, I can see the attraction of a visitor tax and I don't think it would make much difference to the numbers of people coming. However, I don't agree with a flat rate tax - a percentage seems much fairer if there is to be one.

However, I wouldn't trust Edinburgh Council to run a picnic. They can find millions of £s to waste on fireworks, trams, road narrowing schemes etc. but can't afford to collect garden waste or clean the streets. They are a disgrace. I am sure other council tax payers across Scotland have similar views on their own local authorities.

Were such a charge to be introduced in Edinburgh (and I think it would be here first - were it to be sanctioned), I can't see how it would not - in time - be rolled out across the country. Would such a tax be detrimental? - I'm not sure anyone really knows the answer to that.

So, I guess I don't disagree with "a" tax in principle, but can't support anything run by CEC.


With £7/8 million interest charge over the next 30 years for the trams you can see why CEC might need some money,do the trams actually make money to cover charges.
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Re: Visitor Tax

Postby yokehead » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:28 am

jupe1407 wrote:Without wishing to be accused of witchcraft, I have absolutely no issue with wind energy/windfarms, they are a not-completely-ideal answer to a question which really has no right answer. Obviously siting should be within reason, but I'm unsure what folk would suggest as an alternative. In fact I'd be quite curious.

Nuclear? - Which remote area do we scar with a massive power station and how do we deal with the waste?
Turbines at sea? - Surely just moving the "problem" elsewhere. Although anything that has an imbecile like Donald Trump in a frothing litigious mess has to be good.

I've walked plenty of hills with views of windfarms and they certainly haven't ruined my day.

As for hydro schemes, I recall a fairly lively discussion on here about the scheme at Heights on Kinlochewe, for example. Admittedly they look horrendous in the early stages of construction, however I don't feel as a brief visitor to an area I have any right to be dictating to actual residents of that area whether they should or shouldn't have access to cheaper energy because it might have spoiled my view for half an hour. They do "blend in" fairly quickly. After all, I can't remember any walk reports referring to the horrors of established hydro schemes on hills like Fionn Bheinn, Sgiath Chuil/Meall Glas etc. They simply become part of a route in such cases. Can you imagine what WalkHighlands would have been like had it been around during the construction of the Cruachan Dam?

Also just remembered we were talking about a Tourist Tax. Oops.

Yes, sorry to have gone off topic - but unlike me you haven't talked about Tourist Tax in your post! :wink:

Agreed there is no easy answer to the energy question. Seems to me though that windfarms and hydro schemes are a runaway train, 'you ain't seen nothing yet'. Hard Cash is driving this, not green credentials, Hard Cash will always prevail. But all these schemes are heavily subsidised, paid for by consumers in their bills. A tax. The few locals who directly benefit are doing so through these subsidies. Maybe those profiting from these schemes, and our subsidy tax, should be charged a windfall tax, to be allocated to local communities. I would feel a bit better, a bit.

As for the devastation caused by these schemes, yes some dams will blend in as nature takes its course, but rest assured that Hard Cash will dictate minimum effort in actively covering the scars of development, and the authorities and government just don't care. The vast number in place and planned are way more than the few that existed just a few years ago. And the time will come when every wonderful view has been blighted. What did you see today on your mountain trip? Windfarm/vehicle tracks. What did you see last week on your mountain trip? Windfarm/vehicle tracks. It will come.

https://www.localenergy.scot/projects-and-case-studies/searchable-register-of-community-benefits/
click on 'all renewable projects', and I wager this isn't all of them...

Glad windfarms haven't ruined your day, but we're all different. In the unlikely event I one day decide to go for Munro compleation, perhaps I'll be better placed visiting some of them at night! :lol:

Back to topic!
LeithySuburbs wrote:Were such a charge to be introduced in Edinburgh (and I think it would be here first - were it to be sanctioned), I can't see how it would not - in time - be rolled out across the country. Would such a tax be detrimental? - I'm not sure anyone really knows the answer to that.


If this were rolled out across the country, every UK resident visiting another part of the UK would then be paying a tourist tax at their destination. When you're away from home you're not using your local services so you could argue why should you be paying more given you're still in the UK, just using services in another location? So a tourist tax for a UK resident would just be an additional form of general taxation, of which we have plenty already. You are already being taxed on items of your spend whilst you're away so that tax, and the tax on profits that businesses make from your 'tourism' (or business trip) should be allocated to the correct local areas. But of course that would require our elected representatives to be competent and to have a will.

Let's just hit Johnny Foreigner then. But they have already paid substantial sums to visit our shores, do we want to discourage them? Surely not.

And what would it cost to administer such a scheme? I have no faith in local authorities across the UK being competent to do this, and it would certainly add to staffing numbers, surely not what we need. We need simplification, not more bureaucracy.

The greatest recent impact upon services and infrastructure across the UK has been the vast immigration in recent years. This has caused overcrowding and, unfortunately, spend on services and infrastructure has not increased in line with population growth, causing a strain. Tourism is seasonal resulting in a great squeeze at certain times, immigration is not.

Paul Webster wrote:But I'd argue we need to better fund them from having a more realistic level of taxes on ourselves, based on ability to pay, rather than increasing the already relatively high taxes we have on visitors which may penalise the worse off and act as a deterrent to the tourism we need. It's already an expensive place to holiday, and tourism from overseas counts as an export for Scotland (in that it brings cash from outside our economy into it).

This seems to me to be a much better, fairer and cost-effective way to proceed, but again, can we trust our representatives to fairly and competently allocate our taxation?
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Re: Visitor Tax

Postby Gareth Harper » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:17 pm

Sorry to be so slow to come back. If that was right I'd be encouraged marginally, but my understanding is that what is proposed is indeed a flat tax (the most regressive sort) of £2 per night, and also the money will just go to general council funds to pay for things we already ought to be paying for, not specifically to benefit visitors.

I live in the Highlands and it's obvious that the council doesn't have enough funds at the moment to pay for the services we need - and this probably is true across the country. There's going to be nowhere to go to the loo soon :shock: :lol: - and we locals need these things as much as visitors.

But I'd argue we need to better fund them from having a more realistic level of taxes on ourselves, based on ability to pay, rather than increasing the already relatively high taxes we have on visitors which may penalise the worse off and act as a deterrent to the tourism we need. It's already an expensive place to holiday, and tourism from overseas counts as an export for Scotland (in that it brings cash from outside our economy into it).


At the end of the day something needs to be done. Visitor numbers are increasing whilst at the same time local facilities stay the same or are in decline. I have no real issue with a flat tourist tax.

As for raising the money by increasing taxes on ourselves (though we are all tourists and will pay the tax in our own country), I have to disagree. The majority of people have not seen an increase in income for over ten years. The average person in Scotland is worse off than they were ten years ago. However, those with earnings considerably higher than average are often considerably better than they were ten years ago.

The answer may be to collect taxes that are due. Many major corporations operating across the UK and making millions, if not billions in profit pay little or no corporation tax. Think Vodaphone, Amazon, Google, Starbucks and a whole host of companies. There is in fact tens of billions of uncollected or unenforced/dodged corporation tax missing from the tax book year after year. Though you should of course note that your Tory masters and previously New Labour politicians are more interested in their investment dividends, consultancies and future directorships than they are in ensuring all companies operating in the UK pay their taxes. I could go on and moan about people on tax credits who work for many of these same companies that also refuse to pay decent wages and on and on about various other issues relating to UK taxes.

Scotland and the UK as a whole is currently still a very wealthy country, and we should have no issue providing such facilities. Though bear in mind that if BREXIT goes ahead, we may well find ourselves in an extended recession, though of course that may make us even more attractive to forgein tourists.

As for moaning about government local and national. We do live in a democracy. You will get the government you deserve.
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Re: Visitor Tax

Postby Gareth Harper » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:31 pm

yes, sorry to have gone off topic - but unlike me you haven't talked about Tourist Tax in your post! :wink:


Yes a little bit off topic, so I’ll try to be brief.

I wonder what impact windfarms are having on tourism?


In a word - none.

Further today Scotland’s biggest generator and provider of electricity in Scotland Scottish Power announced that their generation is now 100% renewable. That’s quite an achievement.

The greatest recent impact upon services and infrastructure across the UK has been the vast immigration in recent years.


That is simply not the case. In 1921 Scotland’s population stood at 4.88 million. By 2017 it had increased to 5.42 million. With BREXIT there is a fear that Scotland’s population could go into decline. We need more immigration not less.
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Re: Visitor Tax

Postby jupe1407 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:06 pm

Gareth Harper wrote:
yes, sorry to have gone off topic - but unlike me you haven't talked about Tourist Tax in your post! :wink:


Yes a little bit off topic, so I’ll try to be brief.

I wonder what impact windfarms are having on tourism?


In a word - none.

Further today Scotland’s biggest generator and provider of electricity in Scotland Scottish Power announced that their generation is now 100% renewable. That’s quite an achievement.

The greatest recent impact upon services and infrastructure across the UK has been the vast immigration in recent years.


That is simply not the case. In 1921 Scotland’s population stood at 4.88 million. By 2017 it had increased to 5.42 million. With BREXIT there is a fear that Scotland’s population could go into decline. We need more immigration not less.


Absolutely spot on, both counts. I've literally never heard of a tourist saying "I'm not going back to Scotland. They've got windfarms, it's shite".
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Re: Visitor Tax

Postby Sunset tripper » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:01 am

Gareth Harper wrote:
At the end of the day something needs to be done. Visitor numbers are increasing whilst at the same time local facilities stay the same or are in decline. I have no real issue with a flat tourist tax.


I think you have pointed out the solution to your own dilemma in your first two sentences quoted above. :D


I totally agree something needs to be done. I also totally agree visitor numbers are increasing each year.
Every single one of these visitors is already paying tax.
So if you have one extra visitor e.g. staying on Skye for his vacation, say paying up to £1000 for his accommodation including 20% VAT. That visitor will pay tax on food and drink also, maybe on a hire car + fuel which is more tax. We have one of the highest taxes on fuel in the world.
So this is an extra visitor paying several £100s in tax already. I don't know how many extra visitors we have each year but they are all paying £100s in tax that we would not have if there were no extra visitors.
So where is all the extra tax revenue going from all these extra visitors that are such a burden on our services.

The answer is not to tax these visitors even more but to direct the hard earned cash these visitors pay in tax to give them decent roads and toilets etc. etc. etc. because they are paying for it already................... and there should still be plenty left over to go towards subsidising the big power companies and for all the other pointless projects that our local and national governments feel we should be spending vast amounts of money on. :crazy:
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Re: Visitor Tax

Postby Sack the Juggler » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:09 am

Gareth Harper wrote:Further today Scotland’s biggest generator and provider of electricity in Scotland Scottish Power announced that their generation is now 100% renewable. That’s quite an achievement.


It is quite an achievement, but its also a little disingenuous as it cannot supply all its customers from its current infrastructure, so it will be buying in brown energy to meet the demand. So Scottish Power customers will still be buying energy from coal and gas). Having said that. I'm not sure what the impact will be of Scottish Power's East Anglia offshore windfarm when it opens in a couple of years.
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Re: Visitor Tax

Postby bydand_loon » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:28 am

Sunset tripper wrote:
Gareth Harper wrote:
At the end of the day something needs to be done. Visitor numbers are increasing whilst at the same time local facilities stay the same or are in decline. I have no real issue with a flat tourist tax.


I think you have pointed out the solution to your own dilemma in your first two sentences quoted above. :D


I totally agree something needs to be done. I also totally agree visitor numbers are increasing each year.
Every single one of these visitors is already paying tax.
So if you have one extra visitor e.g. staying on Skye for his vacation, say paying up to £1000 for his accommodation including 20% VAT. That visitor will pay tax on food and drink also, maybe on a hire car + fuel which is more tax. We have one of the highest taxes on fuel in the world.
So this is an extra visitor paying several £100s in tax already. I don't know how many extra visitors we have each year but they are all paying £100s in tax that we would not have if there were no extra visitors.
So where is all the extra tax revenue going from all these extra visitors that are such a burden on our services.

The answer is not to tax these visitors even more but to direct the hard earned cash these visitors pay in tax to give them decent roads and toilets etc. etc. etc. because they are paying for it already................... and there should still be plenty left over to go towards subsidising the big power companies and for all the other pointless projects that our local and national governments feel we should be spending vast amounts of money on. :crazy:


Unfortunately (At the Moment) all that VAT goes to a government in a different country to use as they see fit.

I've been lucky enough to visit Prague, Budapest, Thailand and Gibraltar this year they all, bar Gib have a tourist tax in some shape or form, Cant say i even noticed it and It wouldn't stop me going back to any of them (except Gibraltar). I cant see a problem with it as long as its spent where its raised and not siphoned off to other places
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