Opinions on Winter Walking Fatalities

[rabthecairnterrier]

As a liberal, I firmly believe we all live or die by our own personal choices.

That is fine, up until the point where personal choices negatively impact someone else. Unfortunately some people deny externalised costs exist.

MRT members generally keep their opinions to themselves, even when they are annoyed at other people feigning outrage on their behalf. As for going out in "dubious" conditions that, as always, is a matter of personal responsibility. If MR volunteers were not themselves winter mountaineers they wouldn't be able to do what they do, and a lot of people might be surprised at the number of occasions they have been called upon to rescue their own members.
A couple of weeks ago I was on the hill - despite high winds/whiteout conditions being forecast - in a party consisting of one current MRT member (also ML qualified), two former MRT members, one other highly experienced winter walker and a relative novice (first full winter on the hills). The whiteout arrived just as predicted, but then as we'd chosen our objective with the forecast in mind, and modified our route plan as the weather developed, everything was fine, despite a couple of the party temporarily losing contact with the others for a while thanks to poor visibility. A large part of the motivation that day way was to give the novice some experience of what it was like to be out in a whiteout, a lesson best learnt in experienced and capable company. (The lesson was duly learnt.).
Was this irresponsible? There are those who might think it, but given the cumulative skill, experience and capabilities of the group who can authoritatively say so?
A few years back a Dr Bob Sharp was commissioned to carry out a rigorous statistical analysis of mountain rescue incidents in Scotland. His conclusion was that the average Scottish hillgoer would have to go on the hill every day of the week 52 weeks of the year for over a hundred years before becoming a rescue statistic of any kind let alone a fatality. More people are killed or injured falling down the stairs in their own houses than on the hill, yet we don't castigate people for choosing to live in houses tarter than bungalows.

[al78]

More people are killed or injured falling down the stairs in their own houses than on the hill, yet we don't castigate people for choosing to live in houses tarter than bungalows.

Oh God, spare me that logical fallacy please. Just because there exists everyday necessary risks doesn't mean people can't be called out on taking careless or reckless risks, especially if those risks put others in danger. I'm not talking about going on a hill in winter, I'm generalising to cover all situations where people externalise risk onto others, an obvious example being dangerous driving. I have no time for people who abuse the liberal attitude by trying to claim they can do what they like, as though consequences don't exist.

[rorymch]

I am a bit biased in that I derive effectively no enjoyment from freezing temperatures, wind chill, grey skies, blizzard conditions, zero views, difficult navigation and an often invisible summit

You mean Scotland?

I love it.

[rabthecairnterrier]

More people are killed or injured falling down the stairs in their own houses than on the hill, yet we don't castigate people for choosing to live in houses tarter than bungalows.

Oh God, spare me that logical fallacy please. Just because there exists everyday necessary risks doesn't mean people can't be called out on taking careless or reckless risks, especially if those risks put others in danger. I'm not talking about going on a hill in winter, I'm generalising to cover all situations where people externalise risk onto others, an obvious example being dangerous driving. I have no time for people who abuse the liberal attitude by trying to claim they can do what they like, as though consequences don't exist.

Careless or dangerous driving puts other people at risk who have not accepted the risk but are innocent bystanders, which is why driving is an activity that is tightly regulated (not regulated enough in my opinion). Rescue team members whether mountain rescue, cave rescue or lifeboat crew are volunteers - nobody is forcing us to take part. Deliberately placing team members in unacceptably risky scenarios is not part of the deal; everything is dynamically risk assessed, and team leaders as well as individual members act accordingly. Yes, even after mitigation, there are potential risks involved, whether on the hill, down a cave, or a RNLI crew at sea. We don't condemn or criticize except in exceptional circumstances. And no, we don't appreciate other people having a go at those we rescue on out behalf.

[clem_f]

Looking out the window this morning seeing the conditions I have a hard time understanding how anyone would enjoy walking in the hills - torrential rain, winds gusting to 40mph at sea level and 70mph+ on the summits. To me it would seem to be common sense to put off hillwalking for the day, but I imagine there will be some heading out there. To be honest I can see the original posters point.

[GillSte]

We don't condemn or criticize except in exceptional circumstances. And no, we don't appreciate other people having a go at those we rescue on out behalf.

Thank you Rab, for taking the words right of my mouth. I agree completely. In my years with MR, I can never once remember having any critical thoughts about the people that we rescued. They're people in trouble, needing help and our job is to look after them and be nice to them.

[jupe1407]

This thread is basically a wordier version of the posts one sees on Facebook when a rescue (or fatality) story is shared.

If there's one thing I can't abide on such posts, it's the "avalanche" of uninformed dafties (many of whom have never been near a hill in their lives) who get angry and offended on behalf of MRTs who themselves are only interested in saving/recovering someone. I find these are generally the same types who post OBB!!! drivel and think Marine A and Soldier F are heroes.

Social Media is pure torture on this subject approximately 99.99% of the time.

[iangpark]

I can agree that we have definitely drifted away from my original post, although it is nice to see it's clearly a big topic for discussion (I tend to stay away from Facebook hillwalking groups for this exact reason!) I think my main flaw in my OP was that I should have said I am not against winter walking, especially if it is sunny, where I can actually enjoy it, but those who choose to delve into often petrifying weather conditions after checking MWIS and seeing what's in store, sometimes putting themselves and more importantly others at risk for what I would deem to be a small pay-off.

Here's a summary of what I can personally take away from the discussion at least:

1. Other people do (albeit still unbeknownst to me how) enjoy winter walking in unbelievably scary (for me) conditions and that is fine.
2. MRT teams will not judge those they rescue (although to say it does not cross their minds or isn't said back at the office is still hard for me to believe) and are very understanding.
3. People frequently make comments saying things like "what were they thinking" (I have never seen these personally but I will take folks' word for it).
4. The general opinion is that it is someone's choice if they want to endanger themselves and if that involves a MRT callout then so be it.
5. Almost always callouts/fatalities will be because of an unforseen error, and generally those who go out are perfectly capable of a winter walk in extreme conditions.
6. That what I should have probably called the post is: "What personally makes you want to venture out in extreme winter conditions?"

In all fairness, the OP was written during a bit of a late-night, impatient gripe with what, on the surface, appears to resemble people who walk into the eye of a hurricane and phone 999 complaining of a broken arm, when in fact it is well-trained twister followers looking to chuck small chrome balls into them and then having their van break down!

[walkingpoles]

6. That what I should have probably called the post is: "What personally makes you want to venture out in extreme winter conditions?"

I no longer live in Scotland, but I happened to be among the ones that did these kind of things. Various reasons. It's probably an acquired taste:)

I usually set the dates to go hiking weeks in advance. So, weather forecasts were only used to adjust plans or to prepare mentally. Occasionaly I would not check forecasts at all and simply deal with it.

Quite often, forecasts were wrong. Erring on both sides (they may have become more reliable now). Even when the forecasts were not grim, you might have encountered bad stuff, so rather be prepared anyway. Doing stuff in suboptimal conditions gave me valuable experience to deal with bad stuff thrown at me on another occasions when it was supposed to be sunny. I still benefit a lot from the experiences gained. And I remember that I occasionaly was pleased by bad weather forecasts, because it meant less people on hills and still a fair chance for some sunshine:).

I only did regular munro bagging on daytrips by train from Gasgow. All fairly easy stuff. If I planned to do something involving scrambling or something hairy, I made sure not to be caught in bad conditions.

There are hardly any lightnings, which makes the hikes a lot less dangerous. They are my main reason why I don't go hiking in the Alps when storms are forecasted. The Highlands are still a rather safe territory in bad conditions (compared to the Alps. It's all relative) as long as you know what you are doing and have put out some safelines. I enjoyed this freedom immensely.

I like it when the forces of nature kick in. Whiteouts have some beauty to them.

I know that I can turn back without reaching a summit. It gives me confidence for another time and I feel proud if I take the decision to return below the summit.

I find hiking in bad weather rewarding. Playground adventure. I also like skydiving.

If I still lived in Scotland I'd probably try to become a member of the MRT.


Going out in bad weather was like an informed decision to do so. If the above sounds like I am a suicidal lunatic looking for pain, then there is some misunderstanding.

[Backpacker]

This thread is basically a wordier version of the posts one sees on Facebook when a rescue (or fatality) story is shared.

If there's one thing I can't abide on such posts, it's the "avalanche" of uninformed dafties (many of whom have never been near a hill in their lives) who get angry and offended on behalf of MRTs who themselves are only interested in saving/recovering someone. I find these are generally the same types who post OBB!!! drivel and think Marine A and Soldier F are heroes.

Social Media is pure torture on this subject approximately 99.99% of the time.

I had to remove myself from one of the more popular FB photo pages as I could feel my blood pressure rising every time someone posted when MRT were out.

[regedmunds]

In a capitalist sense, maybe the people who get into problems are actually helpful to the economy. By getting into difficulty they provide employent for some, or voluntary work for others, company profits benefit because equipment, vehicles, clothing, technology and so on will be purchased.

I have no problem with people taking risks, some can be a pain obviously, but as I've found out in my life, there's always someone out there trying to stop people from doing this, that or the other! Every subject area known to man goes though this, I want to do it and others want to stop you from doing it.

[Sack the Juggler]

I've tried to stay away from this thread, but it hasn't got as heated as I thought it would, with most replies being fairly sensible regardless of which way they lean.

In my mind, the hills are there to be enjoyed, the weather is merely an afterthought. Even if the weather forecast is dire, I would still go out if I could, but maybe amend the route accordingly. or be prepared to bail out if the conditions worsen.

Hills can be dangerous in the snow, rain, wind, fog or sunshine. The main concern should be whether you believe that you have the experience or skills to cope with the particular route and the weather conditions. I'd suggest that most on here could cope with most conditions on the hill if necessary.

Anyway, as for the OP not liking cold or wind or whatever it is that scares him, that is his personal taste, and possibly an awareness of their own limitations or lack of experience (I'm generalising as I'm not sure what the issue is), but that is a limitation he sets on himself.

As for making judgments on which conditions people should or shouldn't go out in, that can only be down to the individual, otherwise we may as well stop mountain climbing, scuba diving, skiing, etc, as they may be considered too dangerous by "some" people.

I know that some people's enthusiasm for the hills might outweigh their experience / skills (see the inappropriate clothing thread), but that is how we learn, through making mistakes, and next time they will wear better footwear / clothing / learn to read a map, go with someone more experienced, etc., because its beautiful out there, and it frees the soul to get out on the hills, it draws us back time and again........ subject to the weather