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An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Bourach » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:32 am

Geoff has publicly used some of his profits to help with the maintenance of bothies, most of which, since the publication of his book, have experienced no increase in problems at all.


Most, but not all. So Essan, what is an acceptable amount of bothy closures as a result of this book?
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby al78 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:14 am

Old Stag wrote:Mr Allan is releasing a further bothy book next year. It sickens me to think of people making money from bothies.


This does not make sense to me. Why is making money from writing a book about bothies any different to writing a book about the West Highland Way, or the North Coast 500, or anything else and making money from it? Is running a guest house in a remote beautiful area exploitation of the landscape?

It looks like there is an issue with the Bothy Bible in which some content was inappropriate which has had the negative side effect of inducing a bothy closure, but this thread seems to have gone down the emotional, rather than logical arguments. If you are so angry, and think you have such a solid case, surely you can come up with a soliod logical irrefutable argument.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby al78 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:22 am

Bourach wrote:
Geoff has publicly used some of his profits to help with the maintenance of bothies, most of which, since the publication of his book, have experienced no increase in problems at all.


Most, but not all. So Essan, what is an acceptable amount of bothy closures as a result of this book?


Appeal to emotion and loaded question. What is an acceptable death toll on the road? What is an acceptable level of environmental destruction so you can have a comfortable high consumption Western lifestyle? Anyone can throw these sorts of questions out.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Bourach » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:07 pm

I’ll rephrase that. How many bothies need to close before the MBA stop taking monies from Geoff Allan?
Seems what is acceptable to you may not be acceptable to others?
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Cairngormwanderer » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:44 pm

It has been very obvious for some time that what is acceptable to the MBA is not acceptable to a small group of 'others', most of whom manage to hide behind aliases regardless of which forum they use - including written letters.
1. The Bothy Bible was going to be published regardless of anything the MBA did.
2. The author contacted the MBA and asked if he could use the MBA logo within the book as part of a section which publicised the work of the MBA and the nature and vulnerabilities of bothies, along with promoting the bothy code and responsible behaviour. Some hold this to be an endorsement of the book by the MBA. They're entitled to their opinion. Some people think the Earth is flat too.
3. The author also offered to make a donation of money to the MBA from his royalties. He wasn't obliged to and, considering the odium that has been piled on him by a small but vociferous group of people, he would surely be justified in saying to hell with it and keeping the money himself. But he hasn't done that.
4. Bothies have been gained and lost ever since the MBA was formed. It's regrettable when one is lost, but hardly without precedent. (On the other had we have had at least one new bothy in 2018 and will have another new bothy in 2020) If the occasional closure of An Cladach (like a number of other bothies which close during the stalking season) is due to erroneous information in The Bothy Bible that is unfortunate. Will it be reversed if the MBA announces it is to stop taking donations?
5. Are the Bothy Bible donations the only donations we must cease? I know for a fact that some donations come from people who have voted Conservative, for instance. We are also the recipient of 'community benefit' from a wind farm. Should we start checking the morals of all donors?

Nope. If all these armchair critics want to change the way the MBA is run they should get involved. It's hard to say when they all remain anonymous, but I rather suspect that few are MOs or turn up to Area Meetings, or stand for election as Trustees (it's not hard - there are vacancies). Rather than take on the responsibility of trying to keep the MBA running and of looking after bothies, they would as soon just sit out there under cover of anonymity, shouting names at the MBA and telling the world how crap we are.
Well, I'm rather wearied of it all, as I'm sure they'll be most gratified to hear - they've succeeded in that at least. While there may be some genuine voices out there, concerned about the running of the MBA but somehow unable to do a hands turn, most of these name callers seem to want their own wee private bothies known only to they and theirs and do nothing but damage to an organisation that maintains over 100 bothies for all to use and has had the courage and decency to ensure that bothies are available to all whether they know some secret handshake or not.
There. You've provoked a rant most unseemly for an MBA trustee, so you can call for me to resign or be sacked. Feel free. Having been personally and publicly defamed (not here to be fair) and accused of all sorts of crimes and immoralities, I don't give a flying one.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Essan » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:37 pm

Since the publication of Geoff Allan's book and associated media publicity, exactly no bothies have been closed.

However (and this is just to my knowledge) .....

    One Estate owner asked the MBA to take over the maintenance of an existing non MBA bothy mentioned in the book

    One Estate owner granted permission for the MBA to take over the maintenance of another existing non MBA bothy mentioned in the book

    One Estate owner granted permission for the MBA to renovate a derelict building as a new project, in a popular spot, for use as a bothy. The same Estate also gave the MBA permission to rebuild a smaller shelter that was seriously deteriorating and which they had previously said they did not want repaired.

    One Estate owner re-contacted the MBA with a new proposal after the MBA had rejected a suggested new project.

    One Estate owner assisted and partially paid for a major refurbishment of an MBA bothy mentioned in the book

    One Estate owner finished an almost complete rebuild, entirely at their own expense, of an MBA bothy mentioned in the book

    One Estate owner has started further improvements to a non MBA bothy mentioned in the book.

    The ownership of one property adjacent to an MBA bothy changed hands, with the new owner expressing interest in helping improve the bothy

    Several bothies that were suffering misuse/excessive litter problems have seen big improvements

    Many bothies have seen maintenance work carried out by the MBA with the assistance of the owners.

    A large number of Estate owners (including the owner of An Cladach) have been sent anonymous letters, aimed at persuading them to close down bothies on their land, or end their association with the MBA, because of Geoff's book and the fact he had the audacity to donate money to the Association.

;)
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby jupe1407 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:50 pm

Old Stag wrote:He was out of order writing the first one and making money from it and he has shown his true colours by going ahead with the second one.
No i am not in KPC nor have i ever met any of them.
*edit except Mossman.


"Out of Order" :lol: :lol:
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby rodderss » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:51 pm

73C4ABC1-26DF-41AF-9696-3CDF3F987785.jpeg



Geoff just chilling in the Maldives spending his well earned profits :lol:
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Bourach » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:38 pm

Neil, or should I call you by your alias?

“If all these armchair critics want to change the way the MBA is run they should
get involved”

Most, if not all of these ‘armchair critics’ are involved, furthermore they care deeply about bothies but language like that only seeks to divide. It certainly won’t endear them to your cause.

Unfortunately when their concerns are raised they are regularly kicked into touch by the trustees.

The area representatives of the MBA certainly unilaterally made it clear that they did not want to be associated with monies received from this publication after losing and Cladach. All that hard work and effort wasted.
They were also minuted their disapproval of Mr Allan’s failure to address the reasonable requests put to him by MBA chairman, Simon Bitch to effect a solution which he refused.

Perhaps you could give us your thoughts on that?
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Cairngormwanderer » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:19 pm

So. I'm trying to defend the MBA from attack yet I'm the one who's being divisive. Hah.
The area representatives? Not true. The Eastern Highlands Area for one has expressed no objection to the Bothy Bible or the money donated by its author. And until a couple of weeks ago I was the Eastern Area Representative, so don't lie about what I thought about it.
Kicked into touch? Nonsense. You may make suggestions to (until the AGM) the management committee, and the management committee (now the relevant sub-committee) will make a decision or recommendation depending on their remit. It's a lonmg time since I kicked anyone, let alone into touch.
And as to you being involved? Well I don't know, because I don't know who you are. And don't come the crap about being afraid of recriminations because that's simply not true and to say it is is a lie designed to blacken the MBA.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Sunset tripper » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:29 pm

Old Stag wrote:No i am not in KPC nor have i ever met any of them.

What kind of chicken is that? :?
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Bourach » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:43 pm

.
And as to you being involved? Well I don't know, because I don't know who you are. And don't come the crap about being afraid of recriminations because that's simply not true and to say it is is a lie designed to blacken the MBA.


Sorry am I missing something? I don’t have a clue what you’re on about. Not once have I mentioned recriminations and as a paid up and active MBA member I deeply resent that implication.

I may very well hold a different view to you on this issue, as I am entitled to, but please do not mistake that for something it isn’t.

As was pointed out at the AGM, you may want to reflect on the language you use when engaging with other members. Robust debate is one thing but openly calling folk liars isn’t going to win you many friends.

I can’t help wondering if it was Ryvoan, Corrour or An other Cairngorm bothy instead of An Cladach that was subject to closure whether the Eastern Highlands representatives would maintain their current point of view?
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Sunset tripper » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:46 pm

Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:
I've heard that too Old Stag and it sickens me too. More bothy closures to come? Just imagine if someone was making money directly on the back of any other charity e.g. Oxfam, British Heart Foundation etc.? It would be in the national press.


It's hard to know what your agenda is or what the outcome is that you are actually looking for going by your posts on here.
You are giving the impression that you will be disappointed if there are not lots of bothy closures that you can blame on The Evil Book

Surely it would be better to come forward out of the shadows and provide some constructive criticism if you feel it is required, and you really wish to be of help to the bothy movement. :?
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Ronnie Hillbagger » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:10 pm

Cairngormwanderer wrote:1. The Bothy Bible was going to be published regardless of anything the MBA did.
2. The author contacted the MBA and asked if he could use the MBA logo within the book as part of a section which publicised the work of the MBA and the nature and vulnerabilities of bothies, along with promoting the bothy code and responsible behaviour. Some hold this to be an endorsement of the book by the MBA. They're entitled to their opinion. Some people think the Earth is flat too.
3. The author also offered to make a donation of money to the MBA from his royalties. He wasn't obliged to and, considering the odium that has been piled on him by a small but vociferous group of people, he would surely be justified in saying to hell with it and keeping the money himself. But he hasn't done that.
4. Bothies have been gained and lost ever since the MBA was formed. It's regrettable when one is lost, but hardly without precedent. (On the other had we have had at least one new bothy in 2018 and will have another new bothy in 2020) If the occasional closure of An Cladach (like a number of other bothies which close during the stalking season) is due to erroneous information in The Bothy Bible that is unfortunate. Will it be reversed if the MBA announces it is to stop taking donations?
5. Are the Bothy Bible donations the only donations we must cease? I know for a fact that some donations come from people who have voted Conservative, for instance. We are also the recipient of 'community benefit' from a wind farm. Should we start checking the morals of all donors?


Well, I'm rather wearied of it all, as I'm sure they'll be most gratified to hear - they've succeeded in that at least. While there may be some genuine voices out there, concerned about the running of the MBA but somehow unable to do a hands turn, most of these name callers seem to want their own wee private bothies known only to they and theirs and do nothing but damage to an organisation that maintains over 100 bothies for all to use and has had the courage and decency to ensure that bothies are available to all whether they know some secret handshake or not.
There. You've provoked a rant most unseemly for an MBA trustee, so you can call for me to resign or be sacked. Feel free. Having been personally and publicly defamed (not here to be fair) and accused of all sorts of crimes and immoralities, I don't give a flying one.


Cairngorm Neil,

Let me take your points one at a time:
1. - TRUE.
2. - NOT QUITE TRUE. Allan wanted to use the MBA logo for 10% of the profits from the Bothy Bible i.e. he gets 'the blessing' of the MBA. The MBA had a choice and they could have said something likle: "No Geoff, you are an MBA Official and we do not agree with you that you should be making money on the back of a charity. So no, publish your book if you wish but keep your money." The MBA would have received a lot of kudos for such a stance.
3. NOT TRUE. Allan offered the MBA 10% Only in return for using the MBA logo - see point 2. This is detailed very clearly in MBA Trustee meeting minutes detailed elsewhere in this thread.
4. IRRELEVANT to the argument. Of course bothies have been opened and closed but NEVER before due to someone cashing in on MBA bothies with a bothy commercialising guidebook. This was foreseen by many ordinary MBA members and sadly, part of the responsibility for the An Cladach closure lies squarely with the MBA Trustees.
5. NO. But any responsible well run charity vets it donors and donations carefully. Surely any donation that could have such catastrophic and entirely predictable consequences such as a closure of a bothy would be avoided like the plague? The incompetence of the MBA trustees in accepting this tie-up is truly awful. What is more awful, however, is the abject failure of the trustees to even attempt to right a grave wrong and worse, denigrate anyone who has the audacity to question or challenge the MBA trustees or their policies.

Neil, you are fond whining about folks' anonymity, so a few of questions about that: Is it any wonder that people want to remain anonymous when you rant on - often playing the man and not the ball - like you have done many times on many forums? What exactly would you do if you knew the name of every detractor that has raised this issue directly with or about the MBA on whatever forum? It appears threatening and the issues would remain anyway would they not?

There are of course many 'genuine voices out there' (why on earth do you think people bother to raise the issue?) but your latest rant was not provoked as you assert; it's just what you do, here and elsewhere. Therefore, I will take up your offer and kindly ask you to resign as an MBA trustee as your diatribes are not fit for a person in your position and run the risk of bringing the MBA into disrepute.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Cairngormwanderer » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:14 pm

Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:
Neil, you are fond whining about folks' anonymity, so a few of questions about that: Is it any wonder that people want to remain anonymous when you rant on - often playing the man and not the ball - like you have done many times on many forums? What exactly would you do if you knew the name of every detractor that has raised this issue directly with or about the MBA on whatever forum? It appears threatening and the issues would remain anyway would they not?

There are of course many 'genuine voices out there' (why on earth do you think people bother to raise the issue?) but your latest rant was not provoked as you assert; it's just what you do, here and elsewhere. Therefore, I will take up your offer and kindly ask you to resign as an MBA trustee as your diatribes are not fit for a person in your position and run the risk of bringing the MBA into disrepute.


Two words. One of which is not acceptable on this forum.
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