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An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Cairngormwanderer » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:39 pm

Criticism of the MBA is one thing, but it's hard to take seriously the same old accusations from people hiding behind nom de plumes, whether as individuals or a 'club' which seems to be a legend nowhere but in its own imagination.
It's harder, too, to give credence to their accusations (repeat a lie often enough and loud enough and it will become the truth) when one looks at the wording of many of these diatribes and notes the similarities in barrack-room lawyer writing style between some of these and some of the anonymous poison-pen letters sent to landowners with the direct intention of causing trouble between them and the MBA.
This campaign of false accusations, unsupported assertions and poison pen letters, all conducted by what gives every sign of being a small but connected group of people who remain nameless and therefore hard to tackle is what is really putting bothies at risk. I don't know whether the original poster here is connected with these people, but if not he flies in unsavoury company.
If any of these self-righteous, trouble-makers was seriously concerned with making the MBA a better organisation, they have had ample opportunity to stand for election as a trustee of the MBA - there are vacancies. One way they will not get listened to is by skulking in the shadows throwing accusations and making mischief.
(And in the interests of full disclosure, though many will already be aware, I am Neil Reid, currently a trustee of the MBA.)
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby nigheandonn » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:44 pm

This sounds to me like a very convenient excuse for the estate - anyone interested enough in bothies to pay £17 for a book about them was surely already interested enough to find out their location from one of various free to access websites.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Ronnie Hillbagger » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:57 pm

dav2930 wrote:
Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:The MBA DID endorse the Scottish Bothy Bible.

A quote from MBA Management Committee meeting minutes 01st December 2018 (AOCB) thus: "The group were informed that Geoff Allen [SIC] is producing another book and are the MBA going to endorse it? The Chairman advised that there had been no decision on endorsing this book. It was
decided at the meeting that the MBA would not endorse this new book."

Having briefly read through this thread with a feeling of dismay about the main issue in question (that the Scottish Bothy Bible is having such a negative effect on the gift-economy that the Scottish bothy system so wonderfully represents), I find myself extremely puzzled by the assertion made in the above post. The quote clearly suggests that the MBA does not endorse the SBB. I cannot see how you can derive the opposite conclusion from this quote! Are you a member of the current government by any chance? :?


Hi Dav,
No I'm not in the current Government lol!
Try this quote - previously posted in this thread - from MBA Trustee meeting minutes 17th March 2018:
"THE SCOTTISH BOTHY BIBLE – agreed Trustee response to any future queries – AGREED 25th February 2018
Our agreed stance:
Geoff Allan approached us. We did not commission the book. The book had already been accepted by a
publisher and was ready to “go”. He asked if he could include our logo in return for giving us 10% of the
profit and him acting as an ambassador for the Association in any publicity work that he carried out."
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Bourach » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:07 pm

What is really disappointing about this situation is the selfish actions of one individual has wiped out all the hard work and effort by volunteers who give freely of their time to maintain these wonderful places. What do these volunteers think of seeing their labours wasted? I imagine they cannot be best pleased.

That the estate seem to have cited this book and its author as the reason for this closure seems suggest that the worst fears of many have been realised.

We have to remember that we all rely on the goodwill of the owners to make these places available for us all to enjoy. I thought the ethos of the Bothies Association was built around respect?

Perhaps the author could contact the estate to smooth over this situation?
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Ronnie Hillbagger » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:12 pm

Cairngormwanderer wrote:Criticism of the MBA is one thing, but it's hard to take seriously the same old accusations from people hiding behind nom de plumes, whether as individuals or a 'club' which seems to be a legend nowhere but in its own imagination.
It's harder, too, to give credence to their accusations (repeat a lie often enough and loud enough and it will become the truth) when one looks at the wording of many of these diatribes and notes the similarities in barrack-room lawyer writing style between some of these and some of the anonymous poison-pen letters sent to landowners with the direct intention of causing trouble between them and the MBA.
This campaign of false accusations, unsupported assertions and poison pen letters, all conducted by what gives every sign of being a small but connected group of people who remain nameless and therefore hard to tackle is what is really putting bothies at risk. I don't know whether the original poster here is connected with these people, but if not he flies in unsavoury company.
If any of these self-righteous, trouble-makers was seriously concerned with making the MBA a better organisation, they have had ample opportunity to stand for election as a trustee of the MBA - there are vacancies. One way they will not get listened to is by skulking in the shadows throwing accusations and making mischief.
(And in the interests of full disclosure, though many will already be aware, I am Neil Reid, currently a trustee of the MBA.)


Hi Neil,

Playing the man and not the ball is a true sign of an argument lost and a lot of your 'points' make little or no sense to me. Nevertheless, what is untrue about the closure of An Cladach due to the owner's issue with the Scottish Bothy Bible and the fact that the MBA took a 10% slice of the profits for allowing their logo to be used in the book? BTW I believe that the An Cladach situation is entirely new.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Ronnie Hillbagger » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:14 pm

Bourach wrote:What is really disappointing about this situation is the selfish actions of one individual has wiped out all the hard work and effort by volunteers who give freely of their time to maintain these wonderful places. What do these volunteers think of seeing their labours wasted? I imagine they cannot be best pleased.

That the estate seem to have cited this book and its author as the reason for this closure seems suggest that the worst fears of many have been realised.

We have to remember that we all rely on the goodwill of the owners to make these places available for us all to enjoy. I thought the ethos of the Bothies Association was built around respect?

Perhaps the author could contact the estate to smooth over this situation?


Hi Bourach,

Exactly.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Cairngormwanderer » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:37 pm

Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:
Cairngormwanderer wrote:Criticism of the MBA is one thing, but it's hard to take seriously the same old accusations from people hiding behind nom de plumes, whether as individuals or a 'club' which seems to be a legend nowhere but in its own imagination.
It's harder, too, to give credence to their accusations (repeat a lie often enough and loud enough and it will become the truth) when one looks at the wording of many of these diatribes and notes the similarities in barrack-room lawyer writing style between some of these and some of the anonymous poison-pen letters sent to landowners with the direct intention of causing trouble between them and the MBA.
This campaign of false accusations, unsupported assertions and poison pen letters, all conducted by what gives every sign of being a small but connected group of people who remain nameless and therefore hard to tackle is what is really putting bothies at risk. I don't know whether the original poster here is connected with these people, but if not he flies in unsavoury company.
If any of these self-righteous, trouble-makers was seriously concerned with making the MBA a better organisation, they have had ample opportunity to stand for election as a trustee of the MBA - there are vacancies. One way they will not get listened to is by skulking in the shadows throwing accusations and making mischief.
(And in the interests of full disclosure, though many will already be aware, I am Neil Reid, currently a trustee of the MBA.)


Hi Neil,

Playing the man and not the ball is a true sign of an argument lost and a lot of your 'points' make little or no sense to me. Nevertheless, what is untrue about the closure of An Cladach due to the owner's issue with the Scottish Bothy Bible and the fact that the MBA took a 10% slice of the profits for allowing their logo to be used in the book? BTW I believe that the An Cladach situation is entirely new.


Don'y worry about not understanding my points. My post was not addressed to you but to explain to others why we don't pay much heed to anonymous accusations. If you feel you want to make a point, the MBA AGM is this weekend. I think you're too late to stand for a trustee this year, but you'll certainly have a chance to speak if you're a member.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Ronnie Hillbagger » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:44 pm

Cairngormwanderer wrote:
Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:
Cairngormwanderer wrote:Criticism of the MBA is one thing, but it's hard to take seriously the same old accusations from people hiding behind nom de plumes, whether as individuals or a 'club' which seems to be a legend nowhere but in its own imagination.
It's harder, too, to give credence to their accusations (repeat a lie often enough and loud enough and it will become the truth) when one looks at the wording of many of these diatribes and notes the similarities in barrack-room lawyer writing style between some of these and some of the anonymous poison-pen letters sent to landowners with the direct intention of causing trouble between them and the MBA.
This campaign of false accusations, unsupported assertions and poison pen letters, all conducted by what gives every sign of being a small but connected group of people who remain nameless and therefore hard to tackle is what is really putting bothies at risk. I don't know whether the original poster here is connected with these people, but if not he flies in unsavoury company.
If any of these self-righteous, trouble-makers was seriously concerned with making the MBA a better organisation, they have had ample opportunity to stand for election as a trustee of the MBA - there are vacancies. One way they will not get listened to is by skulking in the shadows throwing accusations and making mischief.
(And in the interests of full disclosure, though many will already be aware, I am Neil Reid, currently a trustee of the MBA.)


Hi Neil,

Playing the man and not the ball is a true sign of an argument lost and a lot of your 'points' make little or no sense to me. Nevertheless, what is untrue about the closure of An Cladach due to the owner's issue with the Scottish Bothy Bible and the fact that the MBA took a 10% slice of the profits for allowing their logo to be used in the book? BTW I believe that the An Cladach situation is entirely new.


Don'y worry about not understanding my points. My post was not addressed to you but to explain to others why we don't pay much heed to anonymous accusations. If you feel you want to make a point, the MBA AGM is this weekend. I think you're too late to stand for a trustee this year, but you'll certainly have a chance to speak if you're a member.


Hi Neil,

Sadly I cannot make the AGM this year. I accept that you may be addressing a wider audience, fair enough, however, my question that you failed to address still stands. They are not accusations but facts and as an MBA trustee you are ideally placed to answer them head on are you not?
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Essan » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:57 pm

Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:I believe that the An Cladach situation is entirely new.


Not at all. Brattleburn and Kielderhead (now closed) being 2 recent examples (both predating this latest of many books)
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Cairngormwanderer » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:00 pm

Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:[

Hi Neil,

Sadly I cannot make the AGM this year. I accept that you may be addressing a wider audience, fair enough, however, my question that you failed to address still stands. They are not accusations but facts and as an MBA trustee you are ideally placed to answer them head on are you not?


I'm a trustee, but I very much doubt that your father was called Mr Hillbagger. All I know is that you appear to be another anonymous troll hiding your identity while harping on about points that have already been answered by Essan.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Hamish mc bothy » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:11 pm

A notice brattleburn being mentioned here now a know very well the point ur making about issues at brattleburn predates the bothy bible us utter nonsense the start of the issues with brattleburn started after the book and got steadily worse for at least a year after the release of the book infact the usage of the bothy nearly doubled in the year after the book damage to the locked shed abuse of the near by neighbour's etc all in the wake of the greedy chaps book
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Marty_JG » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:55 pm

As a side note, I'll happily non-endorse the projects of any walkhighlands posters for a 10% cut. In return you can use my name and logo in my non-endorsement.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Ronnie Hillbagger » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:35 am

Essan wrote:
Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:I believe that the An Cladach situation is entirely new.


Not at all. Brattleburn and Kielderhead (now closed) being 2 recent examples (both predating this latest of many books)


Hi Essan,

I meant that An Cladach is new with respect to bothy commercialisation.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby al78 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:43 am

I'm not 100% sure what the link is between a book and commercialisation of bothies. Is it that someone wrote a book about bothies, and that has incited people to visit them and are careless, which has left some of them in a poor state to the point where one or two of them have been closed?
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Ronnie Hillbagger » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:19 am

Cairngormwanderer wrote:
Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:[

Hi Neil,

Sadly I cannot make the AGM this year. I accept that you may be addressing a wider audience, fair enough, however, my question that you failed to address still stands. They are not accusations but facts and as an MBA trustee you are ideally placed to answer them head on are you not?


I'm a trustee, but I very much doubt that your father was called Mr Hillbagger. All I know is that you appear to be another anonymous troll hiding your identity while harping on about points that have already been answered by Essan.


Hi Neil,

I am not a troll and I suggest you calm down with the insults. You may be an MBA trustee but your earlier rant does you and the MBA no favours, as does your similar attack on Colin Scales in the MBA Autumn Newsletter - incidentally you appear to have privileged access to the MBA Newsletter to get that reply in so quickly. Sadly, you seem to have a habit of playing the man and not the ball and I suggest you need to have a long, hard think about that. Essan may or may not have answered the questions but surely you have an official voice, and as an MBA trustee it would be good to hear your position from a trustee would it not? My question still stands.

Since you seem intent on focusing me rather than the debate I'll indulge you as to my position. I am a long standing MBA member of more than 15 years and no my Dad's name was not Hillbagger as I suspect yours was not Wanderer... I fully support all the good work (and, yes, I've have been on work parties) of the MBA and it's charitable objectives. And no I wasn't bothered when the MBA published the locations of bothies in 2009. Then in early 2017 The Scottish Bothy Bible was published. To my dismay the MBA logo appeared in that dreadful book. At that time I asked myself "what should I do"? I decided to do nothing - apart from discuss the issue with friends/other members - unless direct harm was caused to an MBA bothy by the Bothy Bible and I decided to keep my counsel to myself whilst keeping myself informed regarding the 'debate' about the Bothy Bible and bothy commercialisation. What I've witnessed over the last few years - mainly on social media - was unedifying but informative nonetheless, and you, Neil, have been at times bilious in the way that you attack people (as demonstrated on this forum) and as an MBA trustee you should really know better.

Due to the closure of An Cladach as a direct result of the Bothy Bible/bothy commercialisation I have decided to break my silence and I opted to use this excellent outdoor forum to do this and get news of the An Cladach disaster 'out there', as social media is a cesspit that does not cater for reasoned debate. It breaks my heart to see what I and many others have predicted would happen to our bothies. The fact that the MBA trustees have supported the Bothy Bible is truly awful and as a result the closure of An Cladach is on them as much as the Bothy Bible. What will be the next bothy that is closed due to commercialisation? Will you, Neil, still support the Bothy Bible then? At what point will the MBA trustees say 'enough is enough'? At what point will they admit to a grave error with their involvement with the Bothy Bible and apologise to ordinary MBA members? Why won't they sever their ties with Geoff Allan and the Bothy Bible? They would get a lot of support form MBA members if they did.

As I say it breaks my heart to see what is going on re bothy commercialisation and from now on I will not be silent. The outdoor community has a right to know about these issues and how decisions made at the highest level in a Scottish charity have contributed to such entirely predictable problems as we now see at An Cladach.
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