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An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby malky_c » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:58 pm

Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:but you have to question whether or not that is a good PR position for a Scottish charity that receives all the benefits that you mention? I would say it is not, and I only hope that the MBA distances itself completely


On the other hand, is it good PR that an organisation has charitable status but only benefits a few 'in the know'? I gather the MBA may have been wrestling with that a bit over the years. Whether the book is required to iron that out is a different matter (and I was a little wary of it initially). However it is a well produced book and I think the MBA may have decided that in the scheme of things, getting more younger people interested in bothying and able to take on maintenance duties in the future outweighed the risk of increasing mis-use. Seems fair enough - bothies have been shut in the past allegedly from over and misuse, and probably will in the future. There are also new projects appearing all the time - the bothy list isn't static. I'm not sure that partial closure of a bothy, possibly due to a book, proves that they were wrong.

It'd be a shame if An Cladach ends up being closed or restricted as it's a great spot, but I'd still say that on the whole the book is probably a positive thing.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Essan » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:03 pm

Geoff was going to give the MBA 10% of his profits regardless ;) And the MBA also take money from wind farms. And people who make money selling double glazing! Rumour even has it that at least one Tory MP has given money to the Association :o No wonder membership is on the increase.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Marty_JG » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:58 pm

Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:As we speak, an MBA bothy - An Cladach - will be closed as a direct result of problems caused by that book being cited by the bothy owners.


It "needs" to be closed six months a year? Either those are some heavy problems it has faced, and I'd like to hear what they are specifically with evidence, or the reaction has been heavy handed - perhaps even opportunistic. It seems a drastic reaction, or overreaction; what measures were put in beforehand to try to solve the problems? I can't find a trail online about that.

I haven't seen many reports for the last 12 months regarding An Cladach but the ones I have managed to find don't seem to be horror stories of aghast and agog people needing to clutch their pearls.

http://caskie.net/hills/Non-hillAdventures/2018/PortAskaigPortEllen/index.html
https://fleabite.wordpress.com/2019/06/19/islay-and-jura-days-2-5/

Maybe its the software engineer in me but I want to see the data before I agree there's a bug in code.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Ronnie Hillbagger » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:04 pm

Essan wrote:Geoff was going to give the MBA 10% of his profits regardless ;) And the MBA also take money from wind farms. And people who make money selling double glazing! Rumour even has it that at least one Tory MP has given money to the Association :o No wonder membership is on the increase.


Hi Essan,

Sorry but you are wrong again:
A quote from the MBA Trustee meeting minutes 27th March 2018:
"THE SCOTTISH BOTHY BIBLE – agreed Trustee response to any future queries – AGREED 25th February 2018
Our agreed stance:
Geoff Allan approached us. We did not commission the book. The book had already been accepted by a
publisher and was ready to “go”. He asked if he could include our logo in return for giving us 10% of the
profit and him acting as an ambassador for the Association in any publicity work that he carried out.
"


the rest of your points are irrelevant to the closure of An Cladach due to the Bothy Bible.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby mynthdd2 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:10 pm

What are the six months of closure? not stalking season or anything?
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Ronnie Hillbagger » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:14 pm

Marty_JG wrote:
Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:As we speak, an MBA bothy - An Cladach - will be closed as a direct result of problems caused by that book being cited by the bothy owners.


It "needs" to be closed six months a year? Either those are some heavy problems it has faced, and I'd like to hear what they are specifically with evidence, or the reaction has been heavy handed - perhaps even opportunistic. It seems a drastic reaction, or overreaction; what measures were put in beforehand to try to solve the problems? I can't find a trail online about that.

I haven't seen many reports for the last 12 months regarding An Cladach but the ones I have managed to find don't seem to be horror stories of aghast and agog people needing to clutch their pearls.

Maybe its the software engineer in me but I want to see the data before I agree there's a bug in code.


Hi Marty,

No it does not 'need to be closed' - I never said that. The decision taken by the owners to close the bothy for 6 months of the year is from their entirely understandable view that Bothy Bible has created problems for them as the book directs people to park about a mile down a private road at 'Lossit Farm' and because of the associated problems that causes. I'm also told that the MBA have tried to ask Geoff Allan to do something about this problem caused by his book and he has simply refused to help. No surprises there as he has already made his money... You will see by other posters - including MBA insiders - that the above situation is correct unless something changes so no need to wait for the raw data! :)
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Ronnie Hillbagger » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:15 pm

mynthdd2 wrote:What are the six months of closure? not stalking season or anything?


1st September - 1st March from 2020.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Ronnie Hillbagger » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:18 pm

malky_c wrote:
Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:but you have to question whether or not that is a good PR position for a Scottish charity that receives all the benefits that you mention? I would say it is not, and I only hope that the MBA distances itself completely


On the other hand, is it good PR that an organisation has charitable status but only benefits a few 'in the know'? I gather the MBA may have been wrestling with that a bit over the years. Whether the book is required to iron that out is a different matter (and I was a little wary of it initially). However it is a well produced book and I think the MBA may have decided that in the scheme of things, getting more younger people interested in bothying and able to take on maintenance duties in the future outweighed the risk of increasing mis-use. Seems fair enough - bothies have been shut in the past allegedly from over and misuse, and probably will in the future. There are also new projects appearing all the time - the bothy list isn't static. I'm not sure that partial closure of a bothy, possibly due to a book, proves that they were wrong.

It'd be a shame if An Cladach ends up being closed or restricted as it's a great spot, but I'd still say that on the whole the book is probably a positive thing.


Hi Malky,

A question for you: How many bothies would have to close as a direct result of the Bothy Bible before you think it's a negative thing?
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby malky_c » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:49 pm

Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:
malky_c wrote:
Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:but you have to question whether or not that is a good PR position for a Scottish charity that receives all the benefits that you mention? I would say it is not, and I only hope that the MBA distances itself completely


On the other hand, is it good PR that an organisation has charitable status but only benefits a few 'in the know'? I gather the MBA may have been wrestling with that a bit over the years. Whether the book is required to iron that out is a different matter (and I was a little wary of it initially). However it is a well produced book and I think the MBA may have decided that in the scheme of things, getting more younger people interested in bothying and able to take on maintenance duties in the future outweighed the risk of increasing mis-use. Seems fair enough - bothies have been shut in the past allegedly from over and misuse, and probably will in the future. There are also new projects appearing all the time - the bothy list isn't static. I'm not sure that partial closure of a bothy, possibly due to a book, proves that they were wrong.

It'd be a shame if An Cladach ends up being closed or restricted as it's a great spot, but I'd still say that on the whole the book is probably a positive thing.


Hi Malky,

A question for you: How many bothies would have to close as a direct result of the Bothy Bible before you think it's a negative thing?


Bit of a leading question really. Who's to say it wouldn't have been closed anyway, with the estate citing increasing visitors? What about Poca Buidhe? Corndavon? Plus plenty of others I'm sure which have been closed in the past due to 'overuse', and there will no doubt be more in the future. You claim you want debate but you seem to just be out to moan about this book and its author, repeatedly.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Ronnie Hillbagger » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:00 pm

Hi Malky,

A question for you: How many bothies would have to close as a direct result of the Bothy Bible before you think it's a negative thing?[/quote]

Bit of a leading question really. Who's to say it wouldn't have been closed anyway, with the estate citing increasing visitors? What about Poca Buidhe? Corndavon? Plus plenty of others I'm sure which have been closed in the past due to 'overuse', and there will no doubt be more in the future. You claim you want debate but you seem to just be out to moan about this book and its author, repeatedly.[/quote]

Hi Malky,
It is not at all leading, merely an honest question. There is a factual situation where an MBA bothy will be closed due to the Bothy Bible. Surely that is topical and worthy of debate? If you think that's OK please make your case. Speculating about whether or not this bothy would have been closed anyway is irrelevant to the debate.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby malky_c » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:47 pm

Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:Speculating about whether or not this bothy would have been closed anyway is irrelevant to the debate.


I think it's highly relevant - you can only claim that the book is having a negative effect on bothying if you can demonstrate that bothies are being closed at a higher rate than they were before the book was published. An isolated case doesn't say much on its own.

Anyway, this isn't really much of a debate - you just keep re-stating the same thing (which is certainly one possible viewpoint) and telling everyone else their points are irrelevant.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Ronnie Hillbagger » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:59 pm

Hi Malky,

I'm failing to see your logic here. Surely each bothy closure has to be evaluated in each case? The 'rate of closure' is truly irrelevant to the fact that a bothy will now be closed due to bothy commercialisation by the Bothy Bible and arguably the MBA's role in supporting it. I say again, how many bothies must close due to the Bothy Bible before you consider it to be as big of a problem as any other reasons? 2, 4, 20..? I have, unfortunately, had to re-state the points as a few folk have deliberately tried to deflect the argument with various smokescreens from the OP, not to mention personal insults.

Please feel free to state why you think I'm wrong - or even start another thread - and I'll happily engage in an objective manner where you will not be denigrated by me at any rate. I'll also happily debate other bothy closures, but surely to god the An Cladach closure is a serious and new turn of events?
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby Marty_JG » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:07 pm

Ronnie Hillbagger wrote:Bothy Bible has created problems for them as the book directs people to park about a mile down a private road at 'Lossit Farm' and because of the associated problems that causes


Right. Let's pause for a moment. So this is not about the Bothy being over-promoted or commercialised but parking spots wrongly stated?

I think we should all pause for a moment then, anyone who has debated either side about commercialisation can undo their top button and let their neck vent.

The closure is not due to commercialisation. The closure is due to wrong information.
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby mynthdd2 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:24 pm

false news?
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Re: An Cladach to be closed due to Bothy Bible

Postby davekeiller » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:14 pm

I'm slightly surprised that a closure from September to March is due to overuse as a result of a guidebook.

I could be wrong, but I would have thought that most of the people who would be influenced by such a book to visit the bothy leading to overuse would do so in the summer when it's not as cold and the weather's generally a bit nicer and daylight hours longer.

It's beginning to sound to me like the guidebook is a convenient excuse.
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