4 rescued from Ben Nevis today...

[al78]

I'm sorry but this is nothing more than excuse-ridden drivel.

I don't care if they were young, foreign or inexperienced - the simple fact is that you'd have to be a thick as mince to attempt the Ben in such conditions as the weather, even at sea level, was appalling.

Your view is typical of the liberal brigade that always want to find reasons to let people off for making bad decisions and having no commonsense whatsoever.

What's the betting that these people will continue to make stupid decisions for the remainder of their lives? After all, there's no end of apologists out there who aren't prepared to punish them and rescue teams who are prepared to risk their own lives to save them.

Oh dear! Someone a bit miffed. Mr Perfect?

Sigh. It is exactly this type of flippant attitude that saddens me. So do we truly now live in a society where we can not call into question the reckless actions and attitudes of others?

I agree that we should be free to call people out on acts of stupidity, and being perfect should not be a requirement to do so. What is important is have they learnt from the experience? I can forgive people for carelessness if 1) they own it, and 2) have learnt from it.

[Moriarty]

Get an insurance scheme in place, pay professionals such as the military to do it.
No insurance, no fall back.
Does away with this vitriol every time it happens.

It’s very unlikely to happen (happily as it would be harmful) and it wouldn’t stop the vitriol….there are a large number of people who would rather see folks hurt or punished than see a satisfactory outcome.

It isn’t fair on volunteers if they come to harm themselves. After all that’s all they are a bunch of unpaid civilians. It’s not fair on them to have to risk their own lives.

Bizarre and patronising to speak for others (who publicly state otherwise).

I’m sure most on here could afford a few quid a year for an insurance policy, or each time you head out.
After all the gear to do it relatively safely isn’t cheap.

This is pulling the ladder up behind you – it will deter many of our younger selves from ever getting started. It is rank selfishness at best.

I’d like to say I’m surprised that so many on this site focus on punishment and endorse changes that would effectively be a form of self-harm to our community and more widely, but I’m not.

Happily, social media is the haunt of gasbags and gossipers – I’m not imagining that legislators in Holyrood spend much time taking the rectal temperature of forums and FB. They ask the experts and the involved.

[Uncle bob]

I do really appreciate this site and forum ...i've taken on board tips and recommendations to posts i've made your a great bunch of guys/girls ...but NICK70, and BONZO.... they nearly paid with there lives...they learnt a very hard lesson .....I'm no liberal anything ...but NICK70 ....if it will please you and justify your view of the situation ....i'll wear the " Liberal Brigade ... badge ....( bob just deleted a example of his own life threatening mistakes while walking ).

i brought up 9 children ....ages now 20 - 40 .....i taught them lots of things in life ....but never once did i call them stupid in order to teach them ....i've had a few phone calls that start ( Dad i've done something stupid ).....No they had not ...they had made A MISTAKE.

i'll end this post with the true story of my friends 19yr old son , he left a pub drunk at night in a town ...dressed in jeans and tee shirt to walk 1/4 mile home ...one steep hill ...one road to cross ...he'd have been home as he had often done ....there was a small recessed piece of ground behind a public bench ...over grown grass ....the stupid boy lay down to sleep....and a fit and healthy lad died of exposure ....how very very stupid can a boy be.....and inconsiderate to his family .

[mash tun]

But hey, thank you for bringing this to my attention and allowing me the opportunity and the platform to reply

You're welcome

I also have to ask here have you gone through any other posters from above thread who have offered or expressed similar views to myself Trip or Walk Reports to see if there is anything that you can offer a critique on or has it just been mine?

I chose option a, there was never really an element of risk as far as I was concerned.
I truly cannot believe that you find my account of West Highland Way in any way shape or form analogous with these 4 individuals on Ben Nevis.

Nope - just picked a random example as it was only there for illustrative purposes. I wasn't trying to compare the two - just to note that even when we least expect it, things can and do go wrong and then we find that others may judge us regardless of any mitigating actions we took.

Personally I have many years experience of all types of hills in all seasons in all weathers in Scotland but still know that I learn each and every time I go out, will never stop learning and am sure I will make mistakes in future.

The key points for me are that MRT said that they "admitted to having made "a significant error of judgement" and were "extremely sorry"" and that MRT said "the rescued four men should be "cut a little bit of slack"".

[wee black dug]

The MRT reply (as posted by Moriarty a couple of pages back) certainly gives a bit of perspective.

The young folk involved seem contrite and (with hindsight) aware of the danger they got themselves into. It does beg the question a wee bit - given that (a) they had to be quite well at themselves to get to the top in those conditions, and (b) the contrition/realisation suggests that they're no' daft - why none of the four of them, in the several hours involved, in that weather(!) apparently raised the issue of whether it was wise to keep going. Youthful confidence and peer pressure, maybe. Glad I never suffered from that back in the day.

What I did find alarming from the MRT observations was:

For those who call for charging and insurance for mountaineers/hill walkers, be careful for what ask for, as where do you stop, insurance for fishing, rugby, football all of which have more incidents and injuries than mountaineering.

Fishing? Now, don't get me wrong, I've little time for anglers, but I genuinely hadn't appreciated they were in more danger than the fish.

[Raynor]

The key points for me are that MRT said that they "admitted to having made "a significant error of judgement" and were "extremely sorry"" and that MRT said "the rescued four men should be "cut a little bit of slack"".

I think MR need to look at how they are reporting these situations. There has been a recent trend for the teams themselves to flood facebook with posts mid rescue that are bordering on the sarcastic with comments on nationality,age, clothing etc. I'm not sure what that achieves. Wherever you sit on the debate, it would maybe make sense for them to stick to factual reporting and focus on education. I think they have realised that they have perhaps inflamed the debate a tad here and have tried to calm things down.

[Uncle bob]

Can anyone give me any guidance/advice please .....can i now NOT GO FISHING IN TRAINERS ?

[Uncle bob]

Sorry i cant help myself ....i'm into all things CWT at the moment ....do you know there are two Doctors, Damian Hall , and Beth Pascal ...who ran the cape wrath trail..( you wont believe this )... in winter ....in trainers ... (Damian wore X-talon 260 ultras) ...and running in the dark with head lights ...they had some back up , but still crossed some remote areas where only..... the rescue services..... in event of accident could get to them ....i think they are fantastic people ....but if they had needed a rescue .....i doubt the BBC would have reported ...Two stupid idiots rescued wearing trainers .

the internet search sings the praises of these proper proper trainers ....look them up...... Damian ran Montblanc in these......is this setting a bad example

[brpro26]

What3Words reference did they give Up/****/Creek. The trainers were Samba's which make you invincible.

[nick70]

Whoa!! What is it with the personal attacks Uncle Bob and mash tun?

Ok, there is a couple of ways I can deal with this. I can choose to ignore it or I can try and defend myself.

Firstly Uncle Bob. Please read through all my posts. I have said, on numerous occasions, that the group acted recklessly. Why are you feeling the need to single myself and Bonzo out when there have been numerous other posts from other members whose opinions/views are similar to mine?

"but Nick70.....if it will please you and justify your view of the situation......I'll wear the Liberal Brigade.....badge"

These were not my comments, why are you feeling the need to attribute them to me?

mash tun, I asked you if had gone through any other posters (who expressed similar views to mine) reports to offer a critique.

You said "nope-just picked a random example". Really?? So you just happened to be familiar with my only track report and happened to know it almost verbatim? No I don't believe this to be the case. You have actively sought it out to try and find any content to use against me.

"Just to note that even when we least expect it, things can and do go wrong and then we find that others may judge us regardless of any mitigating actions we took".

I can and do acknowledge the first part of this statement to be true, but this is my point exactly, it appears this group did not take ANY mitigating actions.

Finally Uncle Bob, I am fully aware that they had a very close shave. However I still believe I am entitled to call them reckless. No one is more happy that they came through it unscathed than myself.

I apologise that you may think I am the devil incarnate. It's really not the case (I hope).

Anyway I think it is time to stay off here for a while. I have had said my piece.

For all of you about to venture on to the hills or further afield, please enjoy yourselves and above all else stay safe.

[mash tun]

Whoa!! What is it with the personal attacks Uncle Bob and mash tun?

Speaking for myself, not one of my posts was intended as any sort of personal attack and the comments were worded specifically not to be taken in any such way. I think you're inferring something which is just not being implied so please don't think they were intended personally.

mash tun, I asked you if had gone through any other posters (who expressed similar views to mine) reports to offer a critique.
You said "nope-just picked a random example". Really?? So you just happened to be familiar with my only track report and happened to know it almost verbatim? No I don't believe this to be the case. You have actively sought it out to try and find any content to use against me.

Oddly enough, yes really. You're right that I wasn't familiar with your one report but the most recent post was from you so naturally I just clicked on your name and had a read. Again, please don't take it personally - I was merely trying to illustrate a point of how different people can view a particular set of circumstances in entirely different ways.

I apologise that you may think I am the devil incarnate. It's really not the case (I hope).

Hear, hear. I agree and certainly don't think you are.

[Uncle bob]

Nick70 ....apologies, I mixed up replying to both yourself and BONZO.

Your are not the devil incarnate ....but go back to my original post ...i made a general post that singled out no one persons posts... ....you posted a small quote from me and singled me out to justify your view ...thats alright its allowed ...i'm thick skinned, ......you then posted my full post as a quote within a quote to again back up your view of both quotes ....again i took this as a valid reason to address a post to you by name ....my only mistake was making scribbled notes taken as i read the posts....i mixed yours and BONZO'S post up ....again i am really sorry ...BONZO also said " they should be punished " .....but Nick70 ...you cant really play a " victim card "on me ....and cry foul ....my bit in my post re; climbers going beyond there ability and being " Gung Ho ".....Reckless ...just going for it ....you said the public would be on side with them , more sympathetic ....so would I ....but their right to rescue and the 4 lads right to rescue would be the same in my view ..... so lets have some Sympathy and lots of Empathy......BONZO ....punish them .......maybe 8 dead feet in trainers ...proper and deserving punishment .

Nick70 ....you seem an ok guy to me ...i'm sure you'd help me or anyone on this site and forum ..( uncle bob sends a big man hug ) lets all stay safe ....but may we all rush off into the wind and be reckless for many years to come.

[Manwaeadug]

Stupidity (or genuine lack of awareness) of the gang of four aside, it's good to know that there are brave, selfless people out there willing to rescue those in need regardless of circumstance.

I hope I never have the need of them when I get my wee dog into the hills later in the year, but as a neophyte (albeit one who has been reading up and asking questions in an attempt to negate avoidable errors) I've taken this as a little reminder to support MRTs as and when I can.

[Uncle bob]

NEOPHYTE....had to look that one up

[WalkWithWallace]

Scary when there's fellow hill walkers amongst us demanding on either fines or insurance. Turkeys voting for Christmas and all that.

Mountain Rescue have made it quite clear they do not wish for fines or insurance to be introduced and we should be careful for what we wish for. Totally agree with their stance to be honest, end of the day, they are the people going out doing the rescues not the armchair mountaineers.