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Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be managed

Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be managed


Postby Euan McIntosh » Wed May 13, 2020 1:39 pm

Based on the at times heated (on all sides) discussions after the rather sudden changes in England I've written a few thoughts about how this might be managed in Scotland. Here we have an opportunity to have this discussion and address some of the issues that became prominent south of the border before they are so immediately pressing. In this way we may be able to reduce tensions on all sides with some prior preparation and consideration of issues that affect everyone.

https://medium.com/@EKM_/a-return-to-the-outdoors-in-scotland-b37abd41fda2

The key takeaway points are that whatever actions are taken some degree of hostility on all sides is likely but by engaging with all parties beforehand some compromises or solutions to certain issues may be possible....
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Re: Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be manage

Postby gaffr » Wed May 13, 2020 4:37 pm

Yes...absolutely no need for we in Scotland to go rushing about to reach the high hills.
The big numbers of hill-going folks are in the overpopulated England where it will be something of perhaps a risky experiment to allow a free-for all approach in the near future but then, it would appear, that the majority of folks down there are heavily behind a very risk taking government.
Although I have been happy to contain my activities using an off-road bike I have been aware that high hills have been visited In my home area during recent weeks.
In many areas in Scotland it is possible to have a day on the high hills in the remoter areas and to not make contact with or even see a local resident all day.
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Re: Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be manage

Postby johnkaysleftleg » Thu May 14, 2020 8:57 am

gaffr wrote: it would appear, that the majority of folks down there are heavily behind a very risk taking government.


Please don't lump everybody south of the border into the same bag, Its offensive. I'm English and have no more love for the blond buffoon and his palls than you do. Approval ratings of how the government have handled this crisis are plummeting all over the country.
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Re: Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be manage

Postby gaffr » Thu May 14, 2020 12:51 pm

Apologies to johnkaysleftleg..... I obviously used a over wide paint brush on our friends in the North.
I am the offspring of two English folks and was brought to Scotland to live when I was four.:-) I dread having to be governed by the current incumbents for the next four years....so much for Cameron's five year parliamentary terms an arrangement that has been kicked into touch for the last two elections by those who think that they have the right to rule. Although that is not going to happen for the incumbents this time?
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Re: Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be manage

Postby johnkaysleftleg » Thu May 14, 2020 1:04 pm

gaffr wrote:Apologies to johnkaysleftleg..... I obviously used a over wide paint brush on our friends in the North.
I am the offspring of two English folks and was brought to Scotland to live when I was four.:-) I dread having to be governed by the current incumbents for the next four years....so much for Cameron's five year parliamentary terms an arrangement that has been kicked into touch for the last two elections by those who think that they have the right to rule. Although that is not going to happen for the incumbents this time?


With each passing week it is plainly obvious that Boris Johnson is Prime Minister for England alone, his authority over other areas of the UK looks to be tenuous at best, his last act may well be to take you out of the EU but at least it will be his last.
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Re: Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be manage

Postby goth_angel » Thu May 14, 2020 1:08 pm

gaffr wrote:Apologies to johnkaysleftleg..... I obviously used a over wide paint brush on our friends in the North.
I am the offspring of two English folks and was brought to Scotland to live when I was four.:-) I dread having to be governed by the current incumbents for the next four years....so much for Cameron's five year parliamentary terms an arrangement that has been kicked into touch for the last two elections by those who think that they have the right to rule. Although that is not going to happen for the incumbents this time?


What about those of us down south? :roll: (A Brummie here, married to a Glaswegian and living in Kent)

I do think it's pretty ridiculous this is being done differently in different parts of the UK. Not going to comment on politics but it seems daft that someone in Carlisle can legally go for a hill walk when someone in Gretna can't.
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Re: Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be manage

Postby Mal Grey » Thu May 14, 2020 1:15 pm

Its a difficult one, isn't it? I suspect the problem is that many of the more experienced hill folk will be most accepting and sensible with their plans, and will stay more local and aim for quiet spots. The "general public" may not have the knowledge to make the decisions, and to find the quieter spots they will just head for the main well known ones causing hot spots. They may also take more safety risks, unknowingly.
It does appear that outside transmission rates are pretty low. This doesn't mean its right just to open the outdoors completely by default, social distancing and minimising the need to touch anything are key, but I do actually believe that opening up to some extent is fine. IF people behave. And that's another part of the problem, it does seem that rules have to be set harder to confine the minority who will always try to push the boundaries, rather than start at the other end with "what activity can I do to satisfy my own health whilst minimising risk to anybody".
Some people seem to think there's no difference between their urban community and a rural one, in terms of the risk from Covid. There may be little difference in transmission (arguably possibly less rurally) but there is a big difference in potential impact; the smaller rural communities in some of the beauty spots do not have the clinical capacity to handle a sudden increase in cases, and also livelihoods such as farming are reliant on just a few people to look after animals and crops which won't just wait if those people are ill. It seems selfish to impose on such communities even if the risk is minimal, when all I am doing is taking part in leisure for my own good.
However, there is also a huge need to ensure that those reliant on visits have a financial future. This is the really hard bit, as I simply can't see how a lot of that can happen yet and I fear that storm will have to be weathered for some time to come.

I would have hoped that a maximum distance from home approach was applied, both for Scotland, and down here in England (yes I'm south of the border so feel free to ignore my opinion :lol: ). I am so happy that I can now drive to exercise, and can canoe again (when doing which it is very easy to social distance!), but I am staying in my local area. As are some of my friends who are desperate to paddle but don't HAVE local paddle spots; they're still not choosing to travel because it just doesn't feel right. If the limit were maybe the equivalent of an average "county" sort of size (OK Highland is a bit bigger!!!!), say 30-50km from home, almost everybody should be able to find enough places to enjoy leisure yet still escape an urban landscape. A distance limit isn't the only answer, but it might be part of it.

On a positive note, I have found so much pleasure in exploring my own local area in the short hours I was away from my flat each day, and it has countered the worry, the confinement and the loneliness of not having any quality face-to-face time with another human for 7 weeks. Watching spring has been special and I will remember that. It had become "groundhog day", but just the small relief of being able to drive just a few miles has relieved that, and being able to paddle again last night was joyful and has put a smile on my face that has been missing for months. Its worth the wait, and I don't now feel the need to head off to more distance parts.
A little relief goes a long way, and that would be how I would manage it.
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Re: Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be manage

Postby al78 » Thu May 14, 2020 1:19 pm

gaffr wrote:Apologies to johnkaysleftleg..... I obviously used a over wide paint brush on our friends in the North.
I am the offspring of two English folks and was brought to Scotland to live when I was four.:-) I dread having to be governed by the current incumbents for the next four years....so much for Cameron's five year parliamentary terms an arrangement that has been kicked into touch for the last two elections by those who think that they have the right to rule. Although that is not going to happen for the incumbents this time?


You vote for the political party, not the individual leader. It is not against the rules for the leader of a party to change during their term in government, in fact it would be necessary if the prime minister was killed.
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Re: Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be manage

Postby al78 » Thu May 14, 2020 1:23 pm

goth_angel wrote:
gaffr wrote:Apologies to johnkaysleftleg..... I obviously used a over wide paint brush on our friends in the North.
I am the offspring of two English folks and was brought to Scotland to live when I was four.:-) I dread having to be governed by the current incumbents for the next four years....so much for Cameron's five year parliamentary terms an arrangement that has been kicked into touch for the last two elections by those who think that they have the right to rule. Although that is not going to happen for the incumbents this time?


What about those of us down south? :roll: (A Brummie here, married to a Glaswegian and living in Kent)

I do think it's pretty ridiculous this is being done differently in different parts of the UK. Not going to comment on politics but it seems daft that someone in Carlisle can legally go for a hill walk when someone in Gretna can't.


Yes, on one side of the river Tweed, people can meet up with one person outside their household to go for a walk, but on the opposite bank, they will get fined for doing so.
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Re: Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be manage

Postby CharlesT » Thu May 14, 2020 6:01 pm

gaffr wrote:Apologies to johnkaysleftleg..... I obviously used a over wide paint brush on our friends in the North.
I am the offspring of two English folks and was brought to Scotland to live when I was four.:-) I dread having to be governed by the current incumbents for the next four years....so much for Cameron's five year parliamentary terms an arrangement that has been kicked into touch for the last two elections by those who think that they have the right to rule. Although that is not going to happen for the incumbents this time?

Surely all politicians think they have the right to rule, that's why they are politicians. It is the electorate who decide who may exercise that right.
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Re: Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be manage

Postby NickyRannoch » Thu May 14, 2020 6:53 pm

goth_angel wrote:
gaffr wrote:Apologies to johnkaysleftleg..... I obviously used a over wide paint brush on our friends in the North.
I am the offspring of two English folks and was brought to Scotland to live when I was four.:-) I dread having to be governed by the current incumbents for the next four years....so much for Cameron's five year parliamentary terms an arrangement that has been kicked into touch for the last two elections by those who think that they have the right to rule. Although that is not going to happen for the incumbents this time?


What about those of us down south? :roll: (A Brummie here, married to a Glaswegian and living in Kent)

I do think it's pretty ridiculous this is being done differently in different parts of the UK. Not going to comment on politics but it seems daft that someone in Carlisle can legally go for a hill walk when someone in Gretna can't.


That is how jurisdictions work, they have limitations . Scotland has always had a separate legal system, this isn't even a post-devolution issue.
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Re: Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be manage

Postby Gareth Harper » Thu May 14, 2020 7:11 pm

You vote for the political party, not the individual leader.

No, you vote for your preferred candidate. Though many people I speak with seem to think both Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson stood for election in North Ayrshire.
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Re: Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be manage

Postby rabthecairnterrier » Thu May 14, 2020 7:23 pm

goth_angel wrote:I do think it's pretty ridiculous this is being done differently in different parts of the UK. Not going to comment on politics but it seems daft that someone in Carlisle can legally go for a hill walk when someone in Gretna can't.


Not really. Not much different from folk in Donegal doing things differently from folk in Tyrone, or people in Switzerland doing things differently from Austria or Italy. Borders and differences are facts of life. I can remember being driven down a road in Belgium years ago and the driver telling me that on the way back we'd actually be driving in France as the border ran along the middle of the road for a while. That appeared a little ridiculous to me at the time, but nobody seemed to bother very much.
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Re: Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be manage

Postby bydand_loon » Thu May 14, 2020 9:32 pm

al78 wrote:
goth_angel wrote:
gaffr wrote:Apologies to johnkaysleftleg..... I obviously used a over wide paint brush on our friends in the North.
I am the offspring of two English folks and was brought to Scotland to live when I was four.:-) I dread having to be governed by the current incumbents for the next four years....so much for Cameron's five year parliamentary terms an arrangement that has been kicked into touch for the last two elections by those who think that they have the right to rule. Although that is not going to happen for the incumbents this time?


What about those of us down south? :roll: (A Brummie here, married to a Glaswegian and living in Kent)

I do think it's pretty ridiculous this is being done differently in different parts of the UK. Not going to comment on politics but it seems daft that someone in Carlisle can legally go for a hill walk when someone in Gretna can't.


Yes, on one side of the river Tweed, people can meet up with one person outside their household to go for a walk, but on the opposite bank, they will get fined for doing so.


Someone in Carlisle can drink a pint and drive home
Someone in Gretna Can't

Loose explanation


Its how things work in different countries
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Re: Discussing how a return to the outdoors should be manage

Postby Marty_JG » Thu May 14, 2020 9:47 pm

al78 wrote:You vote for the political party, not the individual leader.


That's the theory but the reality is a party at a general election lives or dies by its leader - and everybody knows it.

And it's not unreasonable people do that given the powers of the executive and the nigh-unlimited power of the Prime Minister who single-handedly hires & fires the rest of the cabinet without the least bit of scrutiny from his party or from parliament.
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