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New Coronavirus Law

Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby gman » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:04 pm

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Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby BigTed » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:19 pm

And don't forget the regulations make no mention of distance.

Section 8(4) It is a defence to a charge of committing an offence under paragraph (1), (2) or (3) to show that the person, in the circumstances, had a reasonable excuse.

(5) In paragraph (4), a reasonable excuse includes ......................
to take exercise— (i)alone, (ii)with members of their household, (iii)with members of one other household,]

(o)to take part in outdoor recreation— (i)alone, (ii)with members of their household, (iii)with members of one other household.]

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2020/103/regulation/8

The 5 mile limit is merely a guideline. We can use our own judgement.
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Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby denfinella » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:03 pm

gman wrote:
Paul Webster wrote:The latest government guidance is extremely clear - "people should continue to stay in their local area (broadly within five miles) as much as possible and should not travel further for leisure or recreation."


That advice is not 'extremely clear', it's vague - 'broadly', 'as much as possible' etc. You can travel 5 miles from you 'local community' but you have to stay within your 'local area'. The 5 mile limit is for urban areas but not rural communities, where does that leave those of us living in small towns on the outskirts of cities? You can travel further to meet people but not to exercise alone because we're trying to limit the spread of disease. Mountain rescue say it's OK to call them, then they support charges against walkers, then other mountain rescue teams distance themselves from that statement and point out that they're actually not part of Scottish Mountain Rescue, they're iSMR. None of this is clear.


I agree with Paul and think the guidance is pretty clear - maybe not perfect but certainly clear enough - even though I'm disappointed I'm limited to staying within around 5 miles.

As for mountain rescue, I have no problem with teams 1. continuing to provide a rescue service, and 2. following government guidance, which is what appears to be the case in your example above.

I haven't seen anything about the 5 mile limit not applying to rural communities in official guidance - do you have a source for that?
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Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby Holly » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:12 pm

I have followed this thread with interest because it appears to be one of the few places a genuine, respectable and intelligent dialogue is encouraged without it turning into a slagging match. So,,, I am going to pose an question :-) . I have been trying to find in all the government guidance, where it says we cannot overnight camp. I see people saying they have been advised we can’t , the Mountaineering council say we can’t and provide a link ,, even a sailing group say they can’t spend the night in their boats but , when I go there I still cannot see the no overnight camping allowed. This could absolutely be me missing the obvious. It was announced today that people can stay now overnight at others houses with advice in relation to that but ... nowhere can I see ‘no camping overnight’ . So I would appreciate it if someone could direct me :-) and thanks.
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Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby BigTed » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:30 pm

The regs start by putting everyone under house arrest.

Reg 5(1)

"Restrictions on movement

5.—(1) Except to the extent that a defence would be available under regulation 8(4), F1... no person may leave the place where they are living.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2020/103/part/3

They then make exceptions in Reg 8(4). Taking exercise, work that can't be done from home, seeking medical assistance etc. Camping, or spending the night anywhere else is not an exception. Hence it is banned.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2020/103/part/4

As far as " It was announced today that people can stay now overnight at others houses" it looks like the guidance differs from the law. Perhaps the law will be amended in due course.
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Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby Marty_JG » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:14 pm

But can wild-camping where you hike out and in again be considered part of exercise? :lol:

One of the Scottish vloggers I follow has wild-camped in his local area (SW Glasgow, near those wind turbines) and I'm going to do something similar within my 5-ish mile radius when my new tent arrives. Basically somewhere safe I shouldn't need a rescue from.

The new tent is green btw, only colour they had of the model. Normally I'd have a white or garish tent, never even thought I'd need a "stealth" tent in Scotland, now glad its on its way. 8)
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Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby BigTed » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:42 pm

One of the Scottish vloggers I follow has wild-camped in his local area (SW Glasgow, near those wind turbines)


Does camping include stopping for a while with a shelter?

Image
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Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby gman » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:07 am

The phase one amendment to the regs added 'outdoor recreation' as a reasonable excuse for being out of the home:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2020/103/regulation/8

(o)to take part in outdoor recreation—
(i)alone,
(ii)with members of their household,
(iii)with members of one other household.

Camping is commonly referred to as a form of outdoor recreation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outdoor_recreation
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Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby rabthecairnterrier » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:08 am

BigTed wrote:
One of the Scottish vloggers I follow has wild-camped in his local area (SW Glasgow, near those wind turbines)


Does camping include stopping for a while with a shelter?

Image


... and what about spending the night in a bivvy bag? Are you "camping", or just having a wee rest on your nocturnal exercise walk? No curfew on night walking after all. :)
Realistically, if your stealth camping in a quiet spot where there's nobody around to see you anyway, then self-evidently you are running next-to-no risk of contracting/spreading the virus.
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Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby Gareth Harper » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:04 am

I agree with Paul and think the guidance is pretty clear - maybe not perfect but certainly clear enough - even though I'm disappointed I'm limited to staying within around 5 miles.

As for mountain rescue, I have no problem with teams 1. continuing to provide a rescue service, and 2. following government guidance, which is what appears to be the case in your example above.

I haven't seen anything about the 5 mile limit not applying to rural communities in official guidance - do you have a source for that?


Yup agree.

It’s disappointing, as obviously many of us want to return to the hills, but these are strange days. And we’ll only get out of this mess if we pull together and co-operate.

There isn’t a 5-mile limit. 5 miles is a suggestion.

For me, heading to the hills, whether that be towards the borders or towards the highlands, would mean a 50-mile drive or more. Clearly 50 miles is not staying local, and well outside the suggested 5-mile limit.

I think it’s worth bearing in mind that funerals at this time are still socially distanced – many people are unable to attend the funerals of family and friends. These are exceptional times.

The guidelines on travel can be found here;
https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-phase-2-staying-safe-and-protecting-others/pages/travel/

As a guide, rather than a fixed limit, our advice is that 5 miles from your home would be within your local area.
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Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby Sgurr » Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:44 pm

Went for a walk locally and see that around 30 motor cyclists have decided to drive here. No signs of them getting off their bikes for exercise, just for toasties. They are all in the fresh air and although their bikes are cuddling close, they appear to be keeping distance from people and each other. Is this allowed? And if so, why can't we all get together and climb an easy hill that won't bother MR? Not really sure what is allowed in whatever phase we are now in. Please don't all jump in at once and say that I should have been reading these long threads. If car parks are closed, I suppose that answers it....there wouldn't be room for all of us.
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Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby Tringa » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:52 pm

Only two days to wait and Scotland is fully open for some at least.

This - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53093007 - includes the following,


From Monday 22 June ...

"People are still being asked to work from home wherever possible, and to stay in their local area during Phase 2.

That means not travelling more than five miles for leisure and recreation - although that limit does not apply to meeting family and friends."


My interpretation is if you exercise yourself (or with members of your own household) then you should not travel more than five miles. However, if you want to meet family or friends you can travel any distance.

All you need is a friend in any area and you can travel there to meet them, and then together you can do a hill.

I know the five miles is not in law but it is very much encouraged by the Scottish Government, but the above looks as if from Monday, much wider travelling is sanctioned for many.


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Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby Marty_JG » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:20 pm

Tringa wrote:All you need is a friend in any area and you can travel there to meet them, and then together you can do a hill.


Exactly, it's perfectly legal & encouraged to travel long distances providing you're attempting to maximise not minimise the risk of intra-community transmission. :wtf:
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Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby gman » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:47 pm

Tringa wrote:Only two days to wait and Scotland is fully open for some at least.

From Monday 22 June ...

"People are still being asked to work from home wherever possible, and to stay in their local area during Phase 2.

That means not travelling more than five miles for leisure and recreation - although that limit does not apply to meeting family and friends."


My interpretation is if you exercise yourself (or with members of your own household) then you should not travel more than five miles. However, if you want to meet family or friends you can travel any distance.


This is unchanged from the phase 1 guidance, which is why Nicola Sturgeon could drive from Glasgow to North Ayrshire to meet her parents. She will be able to use their toilet in phase 2 though :lol:
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Re: New Coronavirus Law

Postby bartape » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:54 pm

Flat Earther wrote:About time - :clap: :clap: :clap:

mountaineering.scot/news/testing-time-for-mountaineers


A group representing the interests of hillwalkers, mountaineers and skiers has described the continued restriction on travel for leisure activities as "frustrating".

Mountaineering Scotland said it welcomed the "positive progress" made in suppressing the virus, but has asked for greater allowances for outdoor activities.

The group has almost 15,000 members.

Chief executive Stuart Younie said he appreciated the "very difficult" decisions the Scottish government was having to make.

But he added: "While a lucky few who live within five miles or so of mountains have been able to restart their activities in Phase 1, that option remains closed to the vast majority, especially those living in the central belt."


Nice to hear but ultimately no dice...

I do not think MS are asking hard enough, or the right questions, if they cannot get the hills open, but other respective vested interests can convince the SG to -

'...from June 29 Scotland’s zoos, gardens and playgrounds can open, all places children will gather and gleefully disregard social distancing. Any volunteers to wipe down the climbing frame after each use? Hardly.'

quote lifted from Tom Gordon's article on the Glasgow Herald's website, dated 20th June 2020
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