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Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.


Postby gaffr » Sat May 30, 2020 8:53 am

Well it appears so with the extensions and changes to the Speyside Way route. Maybe it just that my maps and Memory map and the OS maps that I have on the phone are greatly out of date. The website for the route/map still shows Aviemore as the southern start or finish although since 2015 Kincraig has been way-pointed and has new paths etc. much of the way includes paths used by the Badenoch Way that began at the Dalraddy holiday park and continued on towards Kingussie.
Now even that route out to Kingussie from Kincraig has been way-pointed up as an extension to the Speyside Way.
I cycled the upgraded paths and also uses some of the ancient paths and the scraped out ones used by I guess the now dismissed Badenoch way. The new path takes the walker/rider out to link with the West Glen Feshie road on a path beside the tarred surface and then into the Uath Lochans area and up onto Creag Far-leitire. After a lung busting pedal up to the summit on an old trail, now waypointed as the official route, I connected with the new route basically a new track linking with a rather loose surfaced wide forestry road to descend and link to the old paths used on the Badenoch Way and onwards to the Bird Hide overlooking the wet area of Badenoch just a couple of Kilometres from Kingussie.
Next time that I travel the route I will avoid the new link from Far-leitire and use the old upgraded path to reach the same place as previously described....if now it is still useable.
I have the feeling that the new path up from Kincraig and into the Lochans and up to Far-leitire will probably become one of the new highlights on the Speyside Way. It is a pleasant area to walk.
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Re: Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Postby jmarkb » Sat May 30, 2020 9:04 am

Current OS 1:25k and 1:50k maps mark show the Speyside way going as far as Kincraig, and then only the 1:25k has the Badenoch Way to the car park east of Ruthven Barracks.
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Re: Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Postby Mal Grey » Sat May 30, 2020 9:16 am

Looks like a nice extension round the lochans.

OS Maps latest shows the Speyside Way to Kincraig, but only the Badenoch Way after that. I don't know when that bit opened, but they do have a good year or two's worth of work updating at any point in time, which then has to be prioritised, and rely on information from local authorities and organisations to highlight the need. Given the website itself hasn't yet updated their own walk route since 2015, it may be that it hasn't been brought to the OS's attention quickly, or they were told it follows the Badenoch, even though it doesn't quite, which might make it a lower priority to change.
Either way, they are happy to receive info such as this; I've emailed them myself about a 20+ year old 6 acre wood I "found" once (landowner had just quietly planted it with no change of purpose).
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Re: Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Postby Csm8 » Sat May 30, 2020 9:24 am

Up until a few years ago I was using my dads old maps from the 50’s and the argument was “well, the hills haven’t changed” and they haven’t. But this was pre hydro dam days so you can imagine thinking you can just walk over here on the map only to arrive and find that a lot of the lochs have now quadrupled in size...have new maps now :lol:
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Re: Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Postby gaffr » Sat May 30, 2020 4:37 pm

Additionally to the original post....some images of the route from Kingussie through to Kincraig. It would appear that the Kingussie end of the route still carries the Badenoch Way information where later it changes to the new Speyside Way information signs at approximately NH 819018. From Kingussie there is a new path up to Tromie Bridge that passes the Bird Hide above the Ruthven barracks.
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Flower power with the help from battery power on these bike parked up at Tromie Bridge.
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The drop down on the new path up from the Hamlet.
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The Water Sports centre at Loch Insh seen from the new path into Kincraig.


I got several of the images out of sequence....I probably did not press the 'Place In Line' button.
It may just give a flavour of the route.
I think that it is a good thing to include now the section up/down from the Creag Far Leitire and the Uath Lochans area that was not included in the original Badenoch Way.
The back yards of three small hamlets are past bye on the trail..... Drumguish, Inveruglass and Insh.
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Drumguish
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Re: Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Postby davekeiller » Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:09 pm

It's sometimes worth looking at the copyright information on the paper copy of your map.
It will give the date of the last full survey, and then say something like "revised for selected changes up to 2015".
Generally it takes about a year from OS noting the changes to them appearing on a paper map, so if the changes were made less than 2 or 3 years ago, they won't have appeared on paper maps yet.
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Re: Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Postby Marty_JG » Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:25 pm

gaffr wrote:Well it appears so with the extensions and changes to the Speyside Way route. Maybe it just that my maps and Memory map and the OS maps that I have on the phone are greatly out of date. The website for the route/map still shows Aviemore as the southern start or finish although since 2015 Kincraig has been way-pointed and has new paths etc.


This is exactly why Walkhiglands has GPX files, the files are kept up-to-date (including Speyside Way) so you download them and upload them to your phone or GPS device.

https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/speyside-way.shtml
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Re: Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Postby Sgurr » Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:06 pm

I often point out to the OS that there are tracks that have obviously been there for years that don't appear on their Maps and they politely reply something on the lines of "Thank you for drawing this matter to our attention. Our Mapping Team agrees that it should be on the map, and it will appear on the next version. We currently have no plans to produce a new version. " The most annoying one was when we went to climb Beinn Mheadhonach(Marilyn East of Beinn Sgulaird)we had been told that someone who had climbed it via the An Grianan route had spotted a big track coming in between Beinn Sgulaird and Creach Beinn. If we had looked at our record of climbing Creach Beinn we would have known about it, but had departed from it low down climbing Beinn Sgulaird. However, it does not appear on the Landranger Map and definitely should do, since it has been there for yonks. Would have saved us a lot of planning possibly to do it from the bothy to the south or walk for miles across trackless wastes from An Grianan.
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Re: Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Postby gaffr » Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:31 pm

Hello Marty,.....Yes the WH maps is reasonably up to date and does include the alternatives as in the new Kincraig to Kingussie section now almost complete. I have taken the bike along in each direction recently and I find it easy to follow so long as you are aware that some of the signage is SW and others are from the Badenoch Way system.
I don't think that the folks who run the Speyside Way website seem to be completely up to date. Aviemore to Kincraig has been Labelled up, on the ground, as the Speyside Way for three years now. It does not appear on any of their information...I think that I correct in saying this. A very large sum of money was spent on the section from Aviemore through to the Dalraddy holiday park....quite a dull section of the walk. I have an alternative here that avoids the multitude of gates and fencing.
Some time ago when cycling through Kincraig I met a couple of Swedish folks who seemed a bit puzzled....kind-of under whelmed perhaps. At that time the village shop was closed and the new Café was not yet up and running. Kincraig is not the easiest place to get away from at the end of a long walk. Obviously Kingussie with much of what Aviemore has for folks finishing a long walk with transport to get to another destination etc.
I just wonder when all this will be pulled together and offer a better deal for walkers. With the new paths out from Kincraig up to the hamlet of Ardgeal and beyond to the Uath Lochans all on new paths and up onto Creag far Leitire by an very fine old trail. This area may well become one of the main highlights of the extended walk?
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Re: Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Postby Marty_JG » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:27 am

gaffr wrote:I don't think that the folks who run the Speyside Way website seem to be completely up to date.


If you emailed them they might be interested.
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Re: Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Postby gaffr » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:14 am

Hello... I did try contacting using the 'contact' thing on the website...no response.That was some time ago.
Had a look this morning where there is a new website layout... Still no Kincraig or Kingussie on the map. Some words about work being undertaken in 2017.
I think.that the money has run out for these projects....I guess that the Aviemore through to Kincraig section has gobbled up huge amounts of cash?
Maybe the folks coming from Europe to walk here have more up to date information.
Must admit that I don't need smooth wide constructed expensive paths on the route... Give me a narrow old path used over the generations to take me from one place to another but then I am still.fairly able and interested in.anciemt paths. The constructed paths are obviously going to enable less able folks to walk from place to.place.
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Re: Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Postby Border Reiver » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:41 am

Sgurr wrote:I often point out to the OS that there are tracks that have obviously been there for years that don't appear on their Maps and they politely reply something on the lines of "Thank you for drawing this matter to our attention. Our Mapping Team agrees that it should be on the map, and it will appear on the next version. We currently have no plans to produce a new version. " The most annoying one was when we went to climb Beinn Mheadhonach(Marilyn East of Beinn Sgulaird)we had been told that someone who had climbed it via the An Grianan route had spotted a big track coming in between Beinn Sgulaird and Creach Beinn. If we had looked at our record of climbing Creach Beinn we would have known about it, but had departed from it low down climbing Beinn Sgulaird. However, it does not appear on the Landranger Map and definitely should do, since it has been there for yonks. Would have saved us a lot of planning possibly to do it from the bothy to the south or walk for miles across trackless wastes from An Grianan.
My guess as to why some tracks do not appear on OS maps, is that OS haven't been informed of their existence. When Authorities build new roads and paths, the OS are automatically informed and maps are updated when the track/road/path has been completed, which may take a few years. However, I'm sure there are many miles of tracks created on large highland estates that the Authorities are completely unaware of. Only vigilance and reporting by walkers and other land users can rectify that.
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Re: Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Postby Caberfeidh » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:56 am

Aaaarrrrrrr, it's a right bugger. All me sea~monsters have moved since this chart were made...

Sea Chart#2.jpg
Ye Olde Sea ~ Chart
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Re: Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Postby Sgurr » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:09 pm

One of the tracks I reported was an old miners' grassed over track that must have been there pre Coal Board. Handy for getting up a Welsh Mountain without fighting your way through bracken which we started off doing before we stumbled over it.

Caberfeidh...I feel for you re your monsters. All our sailing ships have disappeared and been replaced by aeroplanes, which for some inexplicable reason they don't bother to map these days.

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Re: Maps not keeping up with the changes on the ground.

Postby DopeyLoser » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:42 pm

The most annoying one was when we went to climb Beinn Mheadhonach(Marilyn East of Beinn Sgulaird)we had been told that someone who had climbed it via the An Grianan route had spotted a big track coming in between Beinn Sgulaird and Creach Beinn. If we had looked at our record of climbing Creach Beinn we would have known about it, but had departed from it low down climbing Beinn Sgulaird. However, it does not appear on the Landranger Map and definitely should do, since it has been there for yonks.


Too late for you, but that one is on the 1:50k map now: http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=203439&Y=743974&A=Y&Z=120&ax=104248&ay=923825.

I generally check e.g. Google or Bing imagery before setting out, to find where the newest tracks, bridges, woodland etc might be.

Here is a statement of OS's policy for updating: https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/business-government/tools-support/mastermap-topography-support/revision-policy

It shows that some feature types are continuously revised whereas other are cyclically revised (2 to 10 years).

If I have read it correctly:
- Continuous would include 'prestige sites' (a strange title IMO) like sizeable wind farms, high voltage transmission lines, large dams and reservoirs.

- Cyclical would include tracks and paths, and I think changes to forested areas. It looks to me like most areas we would go hillwalking are in the cyclical category. I think these are the kinds of changes that OS would not automatically be notified about.

OS might appreciate change information from the public, squirreling it away until doing a cyclical revision. Or they might not: I don't see any way on their web site to supply reports (other than error notifications) from the public, so maybe they just find it a distraction and hit the automated reply button when told about a change.

I know that mapping of unpopulated areas has always lagged e.g. in the Scottish highlands the six inch map took forever to be replaced; but technology has changed.

I would question whether the cyclical approach is still sufficient for any part of GB. It is probably only a marginal amount of the edits needed to their database. I would think they could make some preliminary changes continuously, improving them later in the cyclical revision. The benefit would be that hillwalking areas would be more continuously up to date with good-enough accuracy.
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