Which jacket for winter hiking and mountain walking?

[TheFox]

Hey folks,

new member here, just discovered the forum.

I'm a university student and joined my university's rucksack club (which does hiking, trekking, climbing, mountaineering etc.) last semester. I got out into the highlands a couple of times in autumn and really enjoyed it, yesterday I went out for the first time in winter. We did a Winter Skills course with a local outdoor centre, climbing a Munro in the Cairngorms in deep snow and being taught everything about self arrests, avalanche awareness, gear etc.

At this time I realised that my ages old winter jacket isn't really up to scratch for the task (hardly weather proof, only an excuse for a hood etc.), so I'm now in the market for a new one.

I'm a bit confused as to what kind of jacket to get. I was originally under the impression that a warm synthetic or down jacket would be the thing to go for, however when checking out our guide's gear (really experienced guy, also a member of a mountain rescue team) and reading up on it on the internet I realised that a lot of people seem to prefer a relatively thin but breathable hard shell over a warm fleece, over a base layer.

What would you guys and girls recommend for winter mountaineering (but also general winter hiking and trekking) in the Scottish Highlands (but also other places around the globe) - a shell or an insulated jacket?

It would be a Christmas present by my parents so while money is still an object, the budget is quite ample.

[doggy]

I don't think there is just one jacket that fits all your needs.

What are your friends all wearing? Have you seen one you liked?

A lot depends on activity and how hot you run. I have a few softshells, a couple of down jackets, a primaloft type jacket and an eVent hard shell, they get swapped depending on the weather and activity etc.

[tenohfive]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but really you need both.

A waterproof shell is designed to keep the rain and wind out.
An insulated jacket is designed to keep the heat in.
Whilst the two are linked, they do different jobs.

A traditional layering system consists of baselayer->midlayer (fleece or softshell most commonly->waterproof outer shell, with an insulating layer in the rucksack.

The waterproof shell is fairly obvious - keep the water out. Features to look out for include a good wired peak to keep the hood in shape and some of the wind off your face in wind and something long enough to cover your backside (if you find it comfortable.)

An insulated layer is generally for rest stops - something you can chuck on as when you stop walking you stop generating heat, and you want something to trap it. It can also be useful for the easier stretches where you aren't generating as much heat.
Insulation wise, you've got either down or synthetics. Down is more effective but when wetted out doesn't offer much insulation, though many modern variants offer hydrophobic down which resists water more effectively and offers some insulation when soaked. Synthetics are less warm per weight/heavier but offer more insulation when soaked, even than hydrophobic down. Personally I've always managed fine with a down jacket underneath a waterproof as I feel the cold and appreciate the better warmth for weight ratio, but both options have their merits.

Now just to confuse things, many manufacturers now offer insulated jackets for on the move - synthetic jackets with less filling than a traditional rest stop jacket that are much more breathable, aimed at people who are on the go in cold climates. These replace fleece as a midlayer, and offer enough water resistance to mean that the waterproof shell can stay in the rucksack unless the rain gets very heavy - and when it does, it can be chucked over the top.

Still with me?

In my opinion, you need a good waterproof shell regardless. Now there are 'winter,' orientated shells, and lighter weight 'summer,' shells. The summer ones tending to be lightweight as they'll spend more time in a rucksack. So I'd start with something more heavy duty. Get down to an outdoors shop and try a few on - I can chuck out names like the Montane Direct Ascent, Rab Latok etc but fit is important. Remember to factor in a bit of room for other layers underneath.
Worthy read:
http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/news/winter-waterproof-jackets-grouptest/0011846/

And some sort of insulating jacket is going to be important. Whether you want to go down or synthetic is your call really, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. And there's loads to choose from. This may be a handy read:
http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/news/winter-insulated-jackets/0012184/

Personally I think the 'in between,' products - lightweight insulating synthetics for on the go, windproofs, Vapour Rise-type midlayers are all very nice things to have, but should come once you've got your waterproof and rest stop layers. And a bit of time on the hill to work out how it all fits together and what will fit your needs best.

[TheFox]

Oh boy, I kind of expected a reply like that

It seems a bit cumbersome always carrying around another insulated jacket in addition to the hard shell and getting it out for every break, then back into the pack when walking again, but I guess when you want to be cool enough during strenuous ascends and warm enough when just sitting around in the snow, there's no way around it ...

It also makes me question the prices a bit. I had a look at different hard shells and I really like the brand that our guide wore, Arc'teryx (like the Alpha or Beta AR), especially feature and design wise, but considering that apparently they really are just thin hard shells with very little insulation I wonder what they offer that makes Arc'teryx demand £400 (!) for them ...

Now just to confuse things, many manufacturers now offer insulated jackets for on the move - synthetic jackets with less filling than a traditional rest stop jacket that are much more breathable, aimed at people who are on the go in cold climates.

That sounds like an interesting alternative. Do you know any good manufacturers/examples?

Anyway, thanks a lot for the advice I guess I have to go down to Edinburgh soon and find a good outdoor store to get my hands on all the stuff you people mentioned.

[gman]

There are loads of options, I use a Paramo Velez smock (£100 on ebay) with a base layer underneath. It's got venting zips for the low level walk in and has been warm enough for me on the Ben, Cairngorms etc in winter. But I run hot and tend to keep moving, if you're going to be immobile for long periods (eg belaying) you might need more layers. If you're planning on climbing you should look at jackets that are compatible with helmets & harnesses. Arc'teryx is an expensive brand - £35 for a pair of bamboo chopsticks?

http://arcteryx.com/product.aspx?language=EN&gender=mens&model=Bamboo-Chopsticks

[Backpacker]

I wear a Salomon Supernova jacket and a baselayer and it keeps me toasty when walking, I'll put on a fleece if I've stopped for any prolonged period of time.

[tenohfive]

It seems a bit cumbersome always carrying around another insulated jacket in addition to the hard shell and getting it out for every break, then back into the pack when walking again, but I guess when you want to be cool enough during strenuous ascends and warm enough when just sitting around in the snow, there's no way around it ...

Personally, it's always at the back of my mind that if something goes wrong - a trip, a fall, anything that will significantly delay the people I'm with - it could be a lifesafer. Worth the extra 600g for that reason alone in my book as if you're layered up well to stay just right when on the move, the second you stop your going to suffer.

but considering that apparently they really are just thin hard shells with very little insulation I wonder what they offer

To start with separate the idea of shells and insulation. A thin hard shell is a standard bit of kit - it's designed to keep the rain, snow and wind out, not keep the heat in. Other layers are designed to insulate you i.e. trap your body heat in. Different jobs, both - in the traditional approach (the one that I adopt) necessary.

That sounds like an interesting alternative. Do you know any good manufacturers/examples?

There are a few mentioned in those links, the Rab Strata or Lowe Alpine Northern Lights are a couple of examples but I think most of the high end manufacturers do something similar.

[jepsonscotland]

Hi and welcome,
You are in about the most catered for area of outdoor gear, luckily!
I would recommend a decent or 'winter weight' shell from eVent or Gore. This will keep out the winter elements and allow your mid/base layer to do their job.
If you look at Rab, Montane or Mountain Equipment you should find something that fits you well physically, as they are all slightly different, plus find the spec you require.
Trying on in store will give you a good fit over the right layers. Not as cheap as online shopping, but the store may well price match?
Our very own 'PTC' has done some good reviews in this area recently, have a quick look.

A couple of personal preferences that may help you:
-Rab Strata (Polartech Alpha) insulation layers are brilliant in winter. Not too warm, light, breath extremely well and are still warm when wet. I use a gillet/vest under my shell or soft shell in harsh weather and it works very well.
-Paramo Enduro is a great winter/alpine jacket. A much more technical piece than traditional Paramo gear, well fitted and equipped. More waterproof than any 'hard' shell and warm enough for Scottish winter.

Good luck.
You'll certainly get many 'six pennyworth's' on here!

[malky_c]

I wouldn't go nuts buying separate jackets straight away myself, unless you enjoy spending money.

Just get a wind/waterproof jacket. I'd suggest that there are plenty of decent options from £100 upwards (other posters have pointed to reviews and brands they would recommend). Pack an extra fleece or two to wear underneath if you are needing extra insulation. I've been wearing my £75 Regatta waterproof for the last 8 years in all seasons - you can probably do better than that but it still just about does what it needs to.

As gman mentions, a down jacket would be advisable if you are planning to sit around a lot (like on a multi-pitch winter climb), and would probably make winter camping more pleasant.

[TheFox]

If you're planning on climbing you should look at jackets that are compatible with helmets & harnesses.

It sounds exciting, but I'm not sure. Possibly in the future.

Personally, it's always at the back of my mind that if something goes wrong - a trip, a fall, anything that will significantly delay the people I'm with - it could be a lifesafer. Worth the extra 600g for that reason alone in my book as if you're layered up well to stay just right when on the move, the second you stop your going to suffer.

To start with separate the idea of shells and insulation. A thin hard shell is a standard bit of kit - it's designed to keep the rain, snow and wind out, not keep the heat in. Other layers are designed to insulate you i.e. trap your body heat in. Different jobs, both - in the traditional approach (the one that I adopt) necessary.

That does make sense of course. So the system goes 'Base layer, fleece, hard shell' for when I'm active (on ascents or climbing) and 'Base layer, fleece, insulating jacket (down or synthetic), hard shell' for long breaks/emergencies?

You are in about the most catered for area of outdoor gear, luckily!

That's because we really do need it here

You'll certainly get many 'six pennyworth's' on here!

I'm not a native speaker and got no clue what a 'six pennyworth' is supposed to be?

I wouldn't go nuts buying separate jackets straight away myself, unless you enjoy spending money.

I actually do, but it's not mutual - my money doesn't like to be spent

Just get a wind/waterproof jacket. [...] I've been wearing my £75 Regatta waterproof for the last 8 years in all seasons - you can probably do better than that but it still just about does what it needs to.

I actually do own a very good Jack Wolfskin 3-seasons jacket (Texapore - is that a hard or soft shell?) that has served me well for over 7 years, but I doubt I could fit it over three other layers.

So it looks like the plan is to get a lightweight, warm down jacket for insulation and a winter grade hard shell for protection against the elements.

Thanks a lot to everyone for the advise!

[Andy74G]

Hi, I hope my experience helps you, I bought the Keela Munro jacket off of Amazon as my winter jacket, while great in poor weather , it's heavy and doesn't pack down easily into my 38 Ltd rucksack when all the other winter kit is included. So I started looking for something lighter. BLACKS are selling the highly rated Montane Direct Assent jacket £120 rrp £220 , this jacket is half the weight of the Munro and packs away into the rucksack easier, plus I can use it during the summer months too, Montanes PRISM insulated jacket packs into its own pocket , saving space in the rucksack, these 2 together would give you some flexibility depending on the weather.

[Veryhappybunny]

Hi

I used goretex shells for years, over fleece but in the last year have tried and been very impressed by a Paramo jacket (a Cascada but that is the ladies model). It has a bit more insulation in it but good ventilation. I sometimes wear a fleece under it too for cold weather.

[TheFox]

One more question: is it wise to buy online and how much room should I leave under a hardshell?

In order to find the right fit it would obviously be best to visit a store, but I'm not one of these people who walk into stores, get a lengthy all-round consultation and then just walk away and buy off the internet, and because I'm particular about design and colours and in store you're always limited by the range they carry, I thought about just buying off the internet right away (can always send it back if it doesn't fit). I just discovered this marvellous site called Sportpursuit (got mentioned in the bargain thread) and they have really highly rated stuff (like Haglöfs, Marmot, Arcteryx etc.) for usually half the price.

I checked some brands' sizing charts and seem to sit in between S and M, but purely based on my measurements wearing normal indoor clothes. A hardshell has to fit several layers (including a thick insulated jacket) underneath, so should I order one size larger or have the manufacturers already factored that in?

Hi, I hope my experience helps you, I bought the Keela Munro jacket off of Amazon as my winter jacket, while great in poor weather , it's heavy and doesn't pack down easily into my 38 Ltd rucksack when all the other winter kit is included. So I started looking for something lighter. BLACKS are selling the highly rated Montane Direct Assent jacket £120 rrp £220 , this jacket is half the weight of the Munro and packs away into the rucksack easier, plus I can use it during the summer months too, Montanes PRISM insulated jacket packs into its own pocket , saving space in the rucksack, these 2 together would give you some flexibility depending on the weather.

I was planning to go for something lightweight anyway, but thanks for the tipp

I used goretex shells for years, over fleece but in the last year have tried and been very impressed by a Paramo jacket (a Cascada but that is the ladies model). It has a bit more insulation in it but good ventilation. I sometimes wear a fleece under it too for cold weather.

That seems to be an insulated jacket though? Do you wear it on strenuous activities? Because the unequivocal advice in this thread seems to be to go for a hardshell and an optional insulated jacket underneath in order to not overheat on ascents. I was initially intrigued by the idea of just getting one warm, waterproof jacket (two-in-one, less stuff to lug around and potentially cheaper) but after all the advice in this thread it seems that that way I'd either die of heat or of the cold

[Gythral]

My experience with 'hard shells' is that they are almost always a size smaller than they claim & 2 smaller than they need to be to get the same manufacturers fleece/softshell under them.

So it's worth checking the sizes as very often the 'cut' of some insulting layers is much looser than modern hardshells

[tenohfive]

Go into a couple of chains, you don't need to use up any of the staff's time - just try a few on from the manufacturers you're looking at. I can order online for most of the big brands and get the right size because I know what size I am in Rab, Montane, Berghaus etc. That being said, with the bigger purchases I physically want to hold one, check the fit (not just size - length of sleeves, if anything catches, see how it feels on.) And many will do a price match with online retailers anyway - so if they've got the specific jacket that you like then it's game on and you'll walk away with it.