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Down jackets

Re: Down jackets

Postby teaandpies » Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:44 pm

nathan79 wrote:
teaandpies wrote:Some of the 'expensive' brands use far better quality down or down that's not been torn out of the flesh of a bird that's still alive.
If you buy a cheap down jacket your down has more than likely come from some kind of cruel practice.

http://www.veganpeace.com/animal_cruelty/downandfeathers.htm

Patagonia are the only company that knows where, when, who and how the down they use is sourced. The other bigger brands are close to having that boast but not quite there yet.


Not so. Mountain Equipment down is fully traceable, they were doing this before Patagonia. Their down garments come with a code which gives you access to an audit and report relating to the source of the down.

You raise a valid point regarding the ethics of down though.


So we have 2. It's a bit depressing actually.
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Re: Down jackets

Postby teaandpies » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:10 pm

Trying to do a bit of research on this traceable down.

Patagonia say on their website that they are the only use traceable down and they started their process of getting only traceable down in their products back in 2007.

After the down is collected from geese that have been killed for their meat, we follow it through washing, sorting and processing facilities to ensure proper traceability and segregation from untraceable down.
Source 'Patagonia Website'.

The above seems to be the key bit of information here. Although Mountain Equipment source from decent suppliers I don't think they can assure the buyer that there has not been any contamination with unethically sourced down at some processing stages, cleaning & treating for example.

It all very interesting, I'm actually going to contact Patagonia to find out more.
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Re: Down jackets

Postby Iainm » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:59 pm

Alpkit also use ethically sourced down in their products.

More info on the supplier certification standards here http://responsibledown.org/
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Re: Down jackets

Postby rockhopper » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:30 pm

Quote from Berghaus:
"We choose to use Responsible Down Standard certified down to ensure that our down comes from ducks and geese which have been treated well. The standard gives us visibility in our supply chain all the way back to the hatching farms and guarantees that the ducks and geese are healthy, well-treated and safe from inhumane practices like live plucking and force-feeding. By 2016 100% of our down products will be RDS certified. Find out more about the RDS here." http://responsibledown.org/
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Re: Down jackets

Postby teaandpies » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:39 pm



Patagonia can assure that the down in their jackets haven't been blended with non ethically sourced down at some stage in the supply chain. That's the difference between Patagonia and all these other brands (at the moment), they are all moving towards the same end goal but just not quite there yet.

I spoke face to face with the man that looks after Patagonia's northern accounts...the man that picks and chooses what shops can and can't see their products. JD Sports wanted to sell Patagonia, thankfully he said no, that guy!
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Re: Down jackets

Postby gman » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:56 am

teaandpies wrote:I spoke face to face with the man that looks after Patagonia's northern accounts...the man that picks and chooses what shops can and can't see their products. JD Sports wanted to sell Patagonia, thankfully he said no, that guy!


Because JD Sports would unpick the seams and stuff the jackets with non-ethical down? Actually, JD Sports own a majority stake in Tiso, so they are selling Patagonia products. And Patagonia reps can pretend they would have nothing to do with JD Sports - it's win/win.
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Re: Down jackets

Postby Alteknacker » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:20 pm

Really interesting thread. I had not given this any thought at all. I will certainly look for the RDS logo in future. I don't mind paying more if there's a sound reason like this to do so.
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Re: Down jackets

Postby TheFox » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:23 pm

In addition to the two brands mentioned before, Quechua/Decathlon also seems to source their down ethically. Didn't find any certification or anything, but on their product description for down jackets it says:

"Our feathers come from Chinese ducks reared for their meat; we remove their feathers after slaughter. We hold the death certificates for these ducks."

I assume by 'feathers' they also mean the down.
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Re: Down jackets

Postby nathan79 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:24 pm

teaandpies wrote:Trying to do a bit of research on this traceable down.

Patagonia say on their website that they are the only use traceable down and they started their process of getting only traceable down in their products back in 2007.

After the down is collected from geese that have been killed for their meat, we follow it through washing, sorting and processing facilities to ensure proper traceability and segregation from untraceable down.
Source 'Patagonia Website'.

The above seems to be the key bit of information here. Although Mountain Equipment source from decent suppliers I don't think they can assure the buyer that there has not been any contamination with unethically sourced down at some processing stages, cleaning & treating for example.

It all very interesting, I'm actually going to contact Patagonia to find out more.


Have you had a look at http://www.thedowncodex.co.uk/
Mountain Equipment work with this organisation http://www.idfl.com/about/.
The audit report I have for my sleeping bag shows the IDFL on behalf of ME carried out inspections of the farms where birds are reared, slaughterhouses and the down processing facility used. I'd never actually read it fully until now but it goes into detail regarding age of birds used, conditions the birds are kept in, and feather processing, down to the specifics of naming the chemicals used.

Another couple of organisations involved you may want to check out are http://www.edfa.eu/ and www.cfdia.com

Incidentally, the last two down garments I've bought have been Patagonia (Though not at Patagonia prices I might add). I do like their "Repair, reuse and recycle" ethos. I visited the Patagonia store in Portland, Oregon recently and they have a policy whereby you can take old Patagonia gear and exchange it for vouchers. Your old gear is repaired if necessary and sold on as "worn wear". 90% of the stuff I saw in that section was in mint condition. I bought myself a down sweater vest for $40(~£32)! Had to resist buying more due to lack of suitcase space.
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Re: Down jackets

Postby teaandpies » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:58 pm

nathan79 wrote:
teaandpies wrote:Trying to do a bit of research on this traceable down.

Patagonia say on their website that they are the only use traceable down and they started their process of getting only traceable down in their products back in 2007.

After the down is collected from geese that have been killed for their meat, we follow it through washing, sorting and processing facilities to ensure proper traceability and segregation from untraceable down.
Source 'Patagonia Website'.

The above seems to be the key bit of information here. Although Mountain Equipment source from decent suppliers I don't think they can assure the buyer that there has not been any contamination with unethically sourced down at some processing stages, cleaning & treating for example.

It all very interesting, I'm actually going to contact Patagonia to find out more.


Have you had a look at http://www.thedowncodex.co.uk/
Mountain Equipment work with this organisation http://www.idfl.com/about/.
The audit report I have for my sleeping bag shows the IDFL on behalf of ME carried out inspections of the farms where birds are reared, slaughterhouses and the down processing facility used. I'd never actually read it fully until now but it goes into detail regarding age of birds used, conditions the birds are kept in, and feather processing, down to the specifics of naming the chemicals used.

Another couple of organisations involved you may want to check out are http://www.edfa.eu/ and www.cfdia.com

Incidentally, the last two down garments I've bought have been Patagonia (Though not at Patagonia prices I might add). I do like their "Repair, reuse and recycle" ethos. I visited the Patagonia store in Portland, Oregon recently and they have a policy whereby you can take old Patagonia gear and exchange it for vouchers. Your old gear is repaired if necessary and sold on as "worn wear". 90% of the stuff I saw in that section was in mint condition. I bought myself a down sweater vest for $40(~£32)! Had to resist buying more due to lack of suitcase space.


Yeah mate I had been reading these pages.

Patagonia will replace any item as well, if you return a £($)200 wet suit because you ripped it but blame the build quality they will replace it without fuss. That wet suit will get turned into 50 beer cozy holders and sold for £($)7 :lol:

Shops that stock Patagonoia gear have been told stores not to argue with customers about returns and just replace it or refund it because Patagonia will credit the company.

Back to the down, as I keep saying there's something in the wording on these sites and they can't guarantee that bad down is not being used.
Patagonia wouldn't lie about this. This is a company (Yvon Chouinard) that turned down almost 2 billion dollars form Nike because Nike couldn't give a **** about the environment! Patagonia turned over $800 000 000 last year.
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Re: Down jackets

Postby gman » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:37 am

teaandpies wrote:
nathan79 wrote:
teaandpies wrote:Back to the down, as I keep saying there's something in the wording on these sites and they can't guarantee that bad down is not being used.
Patagonia wouldn't lie about this.


I would trust an independent organisation more than a business that makes promises about regulating its own activities.
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Re: Down jackets

Postby nathan79 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:41 pm

gman wrote:
I would trust an independent organisation more than a business that makes promises about regulating its own activities.


I agree with you. Much as I like Pataginia, where is the independent proof? Or even evidence of their own auditing of their sources. I'll buy their stuff in good faith, but I'd put more trust in ME and their accessible independent sourced data.
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Re: Down jackets

Postby teaandpies » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:33 pm

nathan79 wrote:
gman wrote:
I would trust an independent organisation more than a business that makes promises about regulating its own activities.


I agree with you. Much as I like Pataginia, where is the independent proof? Or even evidence of their own auditing of their sources. I'll buy their stuff in good faith, but I'd put more trust in ME and their accessible independent sourced data.


Normally I would agree with you guys but I believe this particular thing is genuine given how Patagonia have a real drive to recycle and because Patagonia is a private company it's not driven by growth/profits.
Patagonia give 1% of profits to environmental causes, 800 million tirn over last year so 80 million given away?
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Re: Down jackets

Postby rockhopper » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:01 pm

teaandpies wrote:Patagonia give 1% of profits to environmental causes, 800 million tirn over last year so 80 million given away?
:? One decimal place out: 1% of 800m = 8m. :wink: Quote from Patagonia for fiscal 2015 (May14 - Apr15): " In FY 2015 we donated $6.2 million to 741 nonprofit charitable organizations that promote environmental conservation and sustainability."

For info:
Patagonia 2015
Pentland Group (owners of Berghaus) 2015
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Re: Down jackets

Postby teaandpies » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:28 pm

rockhopper wrote:
teaandpies wrote:Patagonia give 1% of profits to environmental causes, 800 million tirn over last year so 80 million given away?
:? One decimal place out: 1% of 800m = 8m. :wink: Quote from Patagonia for fiscal 2015 (May14 - Apr15): " In FY 2015 we donated $6.2 million to 741 nonprofit charitable organizations that promote environmental conservation and sustainability."

For info:
Patagonia 2015
Pentland Group (owners of Berghaus) 2015


of course :crazy: Apparently some of that money goes to the John Muir Trust.

The point remains, Patagonia make a lot of money however they are trust worthy in my opinion.
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