Walking Gear nowadays!

[davidm2015]

For what it's worth, my tppence

Buying the most expensive bit is wasteful for the environment but there's always a buyer for it just like there are buyers for the most expensive phones, laptops, cars and everything else. I wouldnt say some car manufacturers are taking the p*** for selling cars that are too powerful for normal road use or trading on their name/rep. But even if [and it happens] some top end products in every type of good are ridiculously over specc-d, or only for v specialist users, that doesnt mean I'd always want to buy the cheapest chinese import either. Some of what you pay for is the design [this article on where iphones are made is interesting [google livewire where-is-the-iphone-made ]

for tents, after many years of not needing one, when I finally started on a long distance walk where there was no way of avoiding it, I bought at Zephros 1, which is terra nova' design for the Laser compact 1 [cost gbp 400+] but for about 120. 1.3kg instead of 0.9kg but I then saved nearly 100g by getting some 2g titanium pegs instead which suffice to replace some of the originals. There might be cheaper [whether from china or elsewere, or sold in argos] 1 person tents that will suffice, but a reputation, lots of user reviews, do count for something for me when I'm buying.

One good thing [there are downsides] about so many more people going walking [aside from much more info out there] and the internet, is it's possible to pick up 2nd hand stuff at a reasonable price. Better than the cheapest new stuff and I dont feel as wasteful about bits and pieces of kit that I've picked up and never or rarely used. There are things like yeti gaiters which can be found on ebay for the same price as re-randing an old pair, and which i dont use enough to buy new for 60 quid or more. Or boots for less than a quarter the price of new ones [got some zamberlan vioz 996s for 35 quid recently in almost perfect nick]. I once bought a sleeping bag from tiso and [due to circumstances] it was ripped in several places after a couple of trips. I have rarely bought from sites like ultralightoutdoorgear but they do help me find which brands/models of things are light but still not as prohibitively expensive.

there are some uk companies out there which make high quality stuff even at the lower end of their ranges, that's not all eye wateringly expensive but may just be heavier or bulkier [eg snugpack synthetic sleeping bags] or where they arent a well known 'outdoor walking gear' brand name [the result spiro website has good jackets and thermal hats esp in clearance/sale section, which are a fraction of the cost of berghaus etc - may not be quite as well made but still do the job]. all will be better than unbranded chinese imports. Or other sources outside traditional 'walking gear companies' are those ebay sellers selling ex military stuff [eg the standard goretex bivvy bag-heavier but highly recommended]-may not always be the lightest stuff but not as expensive either.

last - I can recommend the Nortec micro-crampons

[ScotFinn65]

Great discussion thread started by 2 lines of comment

One angle that concerns me is what happens later....

When we buy cheap just now it has the potential to put all the more expensive (possibly ethical or not) suppliers out of business and then we are left with less choice in the market place and at the mercy of the cheap brands.

Just think what a football chairman has done to every brand that he gets his hands on. He takes the brand name, produces cheap versions, selling at cheaper prices, wipes the competition off the high streets and now we are left with the cheap crap in 4 different versions of his stores.

Luckily we still have competition today and options still exist but for how long if we continue the current trend.

I don't blame any country, like China but it pure laws of supply and demand.

[Marty_JG]

I've seen a couple Lanshan tents now and reviewed one for my vlog too and they're certainly decent for the money you pay. However we don't know what the working conditions are like for the people who make these cheap Chinese imports. I don't think the tents will last the test of time either in comparision to the genuine tents they try to copy.

We don't know the conditions of anyone really, do we? What were the conditions of all the people who worked on your phone/computer to post this? The router? The component minerals that needed mining? The gold or diamond on your wife's engagement ring? The people who extracted your car's petroleum or train's diesel. Etc ad infinitum.

As for the tents, to a degree Sil Nylon is Sil Nylon, stitching is stitching. I got my Naturehike Cloud-Up 2 in 2017 and I don't have any signs of wear & tear yet. But it's a brand with a good rep and high-grade aluminium poles. Lanshan have the same rep and don't even come with poles, they use your trekking sticks and have a fairly simple design, and people are now three or so years into ownership.

But I agree to think twice & do some due diligence before some types of kit: crampons, real carabineers, etc., the real "rely or die" kit you should make damned sure about.

Also if I were back in my contract coding days of a frankly unjustifiable amount of money per day I might have a different point of view to my current having-to-cut-my-cloth situation of China direct and/or 2nd hand on EBay.

[WalkWithWallace]

We don't know the conditions of anyone really, do we? What were the conditions of all the people who worked on your phone/computer to post this? The router? The component minerals that needed mining? The gold or diamond on your wife's engagement ring? The people who extracted your car's petroleum or train's diesel. Etc ad infinitum.

As for the tents, to a degree Sil Nylon is Sil Nylon, stitching is stitching. I got my Naturehike Cloud-Up 2 in 2017 and I don't have any signs of wear & tear yet. But it's a brand with a good rep and high-grade aluminium poles. Lanshan have the same rep and don't even come with poles, they use your trekking sticks and have a fairly simple design, and people are now three or so years into ownership.

But I agree to think twice & do some due diligence before some types of kit: crampons, real carabineers, etc., the real "rely or die" kit you should make damned sure about.

Also if I were back in my contract coding days of a frankly unjustifiable amount of money per day I might have a different point of view to my current having-to-cut-my-cloth situation of China direct and/or 2nd hand on EBay.

I get what you say about working conditions, but you've got to have an awareness though and not just blind ignorance and ask why something is so cheap in the first place? It's either cheap materials and or cheap labour.

There's a video online from Mountain Laurel Designs where Ron compares the material he uses against a Chinese copy. The Chinese copy's tear resistance wasn't nearly as good, nor was the HH waterproofness. I don't think for a minute the shame workmanship and quality goes into a Chinese copy than the small bespoke tentmakers. I don't know how often you've used your Cloud-Up 2 tent, but compare it to something like a Hilleberg and you'll see the quality difference.

That said, I like the Lanshan tents, it makes UL gear affordable to everyone who may not otherwise be able to afford hundreds of £££'s for a UL tent.

[Marty_JG]

I get what you say about working conditions, but you've got to have an awareness though and not just blind ignorance and ask why something is so cheap in the first place? It's either cheap materials and or cheap labour.

The reason much direct-from-China kit costs less is there isn't a western company making a several-hundred-percent markup, I found this out several years ago with specialist lighting systems, the western brands with great reputation turned out to be a generic Chinese lighting system where they'd ordered enough units to get their logo splatted on then sold that kit at 3x the price.

I've had my Cloud-Up in howling, flattening gales and monsoons. It's still in great condition. The Hilleberg Soulo is a great tent and it also costs more than a 2nd-hand caravan. It's the cost of all of my kit combined then more then doubled.

There's a video online from Mountain Laurel Designs where Ron compares the material he uses against a Chinese copy. The Chinese copy's tear resistance wasn't nearly as good, nor was the HH waterproofness.

I tried to check but for whatever reason that video is currently set to Private.

It turns out to be quite the controversial test on Reddit, so perhaps that's why. Several people have tested Naturehike and 3F UL gear, waterproof and tear resistance, and have been unable to replicate the results.

You also have to bear in mind these companies have been out for some years now, and some people have been using this kit on the American trails where they use them day-in day-out for months without any more reported issue than you would find in many western companies.

That said I'm not against western boutique companies, they are the only people doing Cuben/DCF tents at the moment. I dread to think how much money China will make when they start to introduce that into the manufacturing cycle.

[DavidShepherd]

So what was the point of this thread exactly?
You pay more for particular companies because of the brand and because of what you associate with that brand.
Take a tv as an example - you buy a bespoke model from tesco and you get the same back panel than is in a branded tv - you are paying more for the brand because the brand knows you will.

What's the hype issue as well exactly?

[crfishwick]

Interesting comments to say the least

[davekeiller]

One thing that seems not to have been mentioned in the comments on Chinese knock-offs is standards compliance.

Things that are sold in the EU are required to comply with EU product standards, and are marked with the letters CE to certify this (previously we had British Standards and products had the distinctive kitemark). Chinese knockoffs don't necessarily comply with such standards, something which can be actively dangerous. There was a BBC report before Christmas where electrical items were tested and found not to meet electrical safety requirements, for example.

Law enforcement agencies do try to take action against the rogues, but the sheer number of products on the market and lack of traceability means that they can't always succeed. That's one reason why it's always best to buy from reputable suppliers.

[regedmunds]

I agree with the start writer. I like most people have succumbed to the marketing that tells me that I must buy this or that but during the past three years I try to make the effort to think for MYSELF!

I began to realise my folly when I bought a £250 Paramo Alta 2, which eventually failed, I always felt wet with it on (I proofed it many times) it was too heavy and too hot and bulky for the warmer months and when the zip failed I gave up on it.

I now keep dry with a £15 Champion jacket, almost perfect!

Likewise boots, I've bought the expensive leather but now just stick with Berghaus Superlight's, I like them a lot!

I've also bought the fabric waterproof type boots and have sent three back because they leaked like a sieve! I do have a pair of Solomon X Ultra's which haven't leaked yet, they are supremely comfortable and when hiking I feel I'm like a gazelle!

I've had a one-man Marmot tent for some years now and I like it a lot, it's so spacious! I really need to buy another one this year and I've got my eye on a Naturehike tent, I could buy nearly three of these for the cost of my Marmot tent!

[crfishwick]

One thing that seems not to have been mentioned in the comments on Chinese knock-offs is standards compliance.

Things that are sold in the EU are required to comply with EU product standards, and are marked with the letters CE to certify this (previously we had British Standards and products had the distinctive kitemark). Chinese knockoffs don't necessarily comply with such standards, something which can be actively dangerous. There was a BBC report before Christmas where electrical items were tested and found not to meet electrical safety requirements, for example.

Law enforcement agencies do try to take action against the rogues, but the sheer number of products on the market and lack of traceability means that they can't always succeed. That's one reason why it's always best to buy from reputable suppliers.

Edit wrong reply to post

[crfishwick]

I agree with the start writer. I like most people have succumbed to the marketing that tells me that I must buy this or that but during the past three years I try to make the effort to think for MYSELF!

I began to realise my folly when I bought a £250 Paramo Alta 2, which eventually failed, I always felt wet with it on (I proofed it many times) it was too heavy and too hot and bulky for the warmer months and when the zip failed I gave up on it.

I now keep dry with a £15 Champion jacket, almost perfect!

Likewise boots, I've bought the expensive leather but now just stick with Berghaus Superlight's, I like them a lot!

I've also bought the fabric waterproof type boots and have sent three back because they leaked like a sieve! I do have a pair of Solomon X Ultra's which haven't leaked yet, they are supremely comfortable and when hiking I feel I'm like a gazelle!

I've had a one-man Marmot tent for some years now and I like it a lot, it's so spacious! I really need to buy another one this year and I've got my eye on a Naturehike tent, I could buy nearly three of these for the cost of my Marmot tent!

Hurrah! I am not alone then.  Or am I getting cynical? Similar to smartphones. Everybody wants the "best"

[Raynor]

I have contrasting thoughts on this.

I think the absolute top end specialist gear costs a fortune for good reasons. For example many years ago I was looking for ultra lightweight clothes, bags and waterproofs. I bought top end north face summit series gear that cost a fortune but was absolutely amazing. The waterproof shell top was as light as a bit of tissue and perfectly waterproof in any conditions. Seriously good stuff and the best I've ever used. Same with the waterproof over trousers. It was such a difference to using just normal waterproofs. The down side was they were very delicate and ripped easily but they were specialist items that did their job perfectly.That said I still have a very expensive ultra light north face wind cutter which has lasted forever.

The flip side to that is my second best jacket ever was an army surplus that cost about 20 pounds and has proven to be more reliably waterproof than other jackets in the hundreds of pounds. There again I have bought cheaper regatta jackets that I have regretted as they have fallen to bits within weeks. Some of the cheaper stuff really is garbage.

I think a big problem is a lot of the modern stuff is now produced in chinese factories en mass and you are essentially paying for a brand name now with little difference between brands. The quality control also seems questionable. You will always get snobs who won't be seen in anything but the top named brands so they get away with charging extra. I've also noticed in recent years that traditionally cheap brands like craghoppers have tried to reinvent themselves as a top brand, with high prices but still generally low quality clothes.

[regedmunds]

I own a Marmot Pulsar One tent and I think that that the newest Naturehike tent looks roughly the same, its about £100. I wouldn't buy it because it's only made in white and I don't think I could live with one that just glares at me!

Capitalism creates many losers and winners, here and elsewhere, I may disapprove of low wages but if I wanted to buy a Chinese white tent for £100 I would. I suspect a lot of other people would as well if they actually 'wanted' one.

[Marty_JG]

My Naturehike Cloud-Up 2 is white and I love it, wasn't particularly expecting to (got it for cost & functionality) but it gives a nice bright clean non-coloured light inside. It might not look aesthetically pleasing beneath the snowline but it's actually pretty great inside.

[Gordymck]

I was an occasional fair-weather walker up till a cpl of yrs ago. I decided I wanted to get out trecking, walking hills more so spent a few hundred quid getting kitted out, I now prefer walking in my running gear, stuff I already had. My old karrimor boots tho started to leak soon after I bought them, I got sealskin socks and still worked out a third cheaper and super comfy compared to the leather boots I bought. Three pairs of running leggings I got for less than one pair of montane trousers, I just wear pair of running shorts over them. I don't really walk much in winter so get away with my running gear which is light and dries in no time. Waterproof jkt and troos combined were less than £50 and tho no the lightest they're not that heavy and work well so don't necessarily need to spend fortunes.