walkhighlands

Share your personal walking route experiences in Scotland, and comment on other peoples' reports.
Warning Please note that hillwalking when there is snow lying requires an ice-axe, crampons and the knowledge, experience and skill to use them correctly. Summer routes may not be viable or appropriate in winter. See winter information on our skills and safety pages for more information.

Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale


by KeithS » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:37 pm

Route description: Sgòr na h-Ulaidh and Meall Lighiche

Munros included on this walk: Sgòr na h-Ulaidh

Date walked: 22/10/2017

Time taken: 7 hours

Distance: 17.5 km

Ascent: 1160m

Click to mark this as a great report. Register or Login
free to be able to rate and comment on reports (as well as access 1:25000 mapping).


Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby Graeme D » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:25 pm

I can just imagine Bear rolling his eyes! :lol:
User avatar
Graeme D
 
Posts: 4005
Munros:251   Corbetts:124
Fionas:75   Donalds:22
Sub 2000:62   Hewitts:36
Wainwrights:28   Islands:6
Joined: Oct 17, 2008
Location: Perth

Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby KeithS » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:28 pm

Coop wrote:Been there and slightly worse on what I thought would be an easy day on a featureless plateau....

As jaxter said - phone is also put onto airplane mode now ( it will still give me a grid on OS locate) and I carry a spare battery pack now.

You got yourself and the dog down safely - well in

I know I'm not the first, and probably won't be the last to make mistakes but hopefully others may take heed of mine.

My phone is very basic (as is my knowledge of using it) and I only use it for calls or for telling the time. I don't use it for navigation.

Bear and I got each other off the hill ok so we live to walk another day, a little wiser.
User avatar
KeithS
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 893
Munros:282   Corbetts:5
Fionas:2   
Sub 2000:3   Hewitts:14
Wainwrights:9   Islands:47
Joined: Nov 1, 2010
Location: Sheffield/Laide

Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby KeithS » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:37 pm

jmarkb wrote:Well done and thank you for posting such an honest account and analysis - regardless of experience we can all learn lessons from others' mistakes. :clap:

A couple of further observations:

I find that keeping my map and compass handy (e.g. in a pocket and not in the sack) greatly reduces the temptation to not bother looking at it.

Leaving a summit in the wrong direction is probably one of the commonest nav errors (all directions are down!), and worth being especially alert to. There's maybe a tendency to complacency is this situation, because you know exactly where you are (but not necessarily which direction to go next!).

Thanks

I usually do keep my compass and map in my pocket, don't know why I didn't this time, will do in the future.

Quite true about going up tends to get you to the top although I do know of at least one person who has accidentally climbed the wrong hill. Coming down, as in this case is not always so easy, especially when rushing.
User avatar
KeithS
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 893
Munros:282   Corbetts:5
Fionas:2   
Sub 2000:3   Hewitts:14
Wainwrights:9   Islands:47
Joined: Nov 1, 2010
Location: Sheffield/Laide

Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby KeithS » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:39 pm

peter tindal wrote:We have all been in situations where we have to make a decision. Like you, I do most of my walks solo and can't blame anyone else as I don't even have a dog. I even managed to come off a ridge in the wrong direction and lose 200m of height before I noticed! That was the last day I didn't carry my map in my pocket! :wink:

Secondly, when I summit in any weather, I put my walking pole 5 yards from the summit the direction I want to go as you are least likely to be disorientated when you first arrive. Even if I am retracing my steps I do this.

Thanks, good advice re the pole, especially in cloud
User avatar
KeithS
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 893
Munros:282   Corbetts:5
Fionas:2   
Sub 2000:3   Hewitts:14
Wainwrights:9   Islands:47
Joined: Nov 1, 2010
Location: Sheffield/Laide

Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby KeithS » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:19 pm

Dave Hewitt wrote:Well done with extricating yourself safely from what sounds like a bit of a pickle. These kind of self-assessment reports are always interesting and (one would hope) helpful to others, so well done in writing it up, too (and writing it very coherently). Two or three thoughts, if I may. One is that the lack of a watch feels like a pretty major omission in terms of kit - as you duly acknowledge. I know that wrist watches have to an extent gone out of fashion among younger people - my better half teaches university students and has commented more than once about how few of them have watches these days. Clearly if you have a fancy phone then that will give the time, but - as with phone-navigation problems generally (which you rightly avoided by taking map and compass) it's no good if the thing packs in. There was a report on (I think) here a few years ago from someone who almost got benighted in the Cairngorms around the same of year, again without a watch and with a phone that stopped working; on that occasion they cleverly calculated the time by checking the timestamp on their camera pictures and estimating how long ago these had been taken - although they forgot to adjust for the autumn clock-change and ended up an hour wrong! But both with that incident and in your own situation there's a trivial way of avoiding any such issues: go to Argos or wherever and buy one of those basic nine quid Casio watches, or something similar. I've long felt that knowing the time - both in the wider sense of when nightfall will come and also in terms of how long it takes to get between various points on the hill, particularly if backtracking, is an important and often under-emphasised part of navigation.

Re nightfall generally, knowing when this comes and having it in the back of your mind all day is really important at this time of year. If - as in your situation - you don't live anywhere near the hills being climbed (and hence you're not able to intuitively know what time nightfall comes on a day-to-day basis), then it involves a bit of calculation and/or remembering to check the previous evening. It's useful to have a sort of general nightfall equation in your head that covers both clear evenings and also cloudy/wet ones, and perhaps to always aim for at least half an hour inside the cloudy/wet time as that helps with giving you a bit extra to play with. Glen Coe is a long way north of Sheffield, so will lose its light a fair bit faster especially after the equinox - but it's also worth bearing in mind that it's a fair old way west, too, so that gives you a bit more time (one degree of longitude equates to four minutes in terms of sun position). These kind of things - actual calculations and general low-key monitoring of sunset etc - are just as important as the more commonly discussed things about navigation and so on. At least you were on the right side of the BST/GMT change - although by late October the daylight is disappearing at a fair old rate of knots.

The other point is that Sgor na h-Ulaidh is a big and quite serious hill to be climbing in autumn from a late start - there's been a long history of accidents and benightments on it, and starting at 11.20am is already cutting it fairly fine in terms of having some slack in the system unless you're really speedy. A target time for the first top of 2pm might have been a better option - it seems to be about 2hr40 to there from the road-end by Naismith, so adding the 15-minute road section gives 2.15pm for the first top - and ideally you'd want to be brisker than Naismith in ascent at least for a late start at that time of year. Even with fast progress in good weather there would still have been precious little leeway for snack stops, layer-adding, dog issues etc.

Also, while there's no harm in being at least a bit triskaidekaphobic (!), try not to be as Munrocentric as your current profile numbers, if correct, imply. A tally of 270 Munros but only four Corbetts and two Grahams is extremely lopsided, and a late start in late October in the Coe (and when feeling a bit rough too) feels like an ideal day for going up Meall Lighiche or Meall Mor from the same start-point as the Munro you chose. They're both fine hills, the Corbett especially (although that might have involved river worries which the Munro at least avoided), and you'd have had a fair amount of extra time to get down for that 4.30pm estimate. It also sounds like it might have been a good day for wandering up the Pap!

Anyway, stick at it (including the solo and poor weather stuff) and keep learning from the mistakes - I learnt a lot from analysing a pretty scary solo episode on Tarmachan (a hill I'd been on multiple times before) after a lunchtime start in January a few years ago. Oh, and definitely buy yourself that watch...

Dave,

Thanks for all your comments, observations and advice. I really respect your knowledge and experience and appreciate the time you have taken to analyse my story. It is not often that the comments are nearly as long as the report! :lol:

I am definitely guilty of much of what you have mentioned.

Guess what is top of my letter to Father Christmas, yes, a watch.

As far as time of nightfall, I had a pretty good idea as to when that would be, I just didn't know where I was in relation to that time, see above note re 'Dear Santa'.

I am lucky enough to be dual based and spend half my time in Sheffield and the other half in Laide so I do spend much of my time near the hills :D I was actually en route south and using this as a break.

Both my phone and I are fairly simple and I have never used one for GPS, much preferring map and compass, altimeter and (usually) knowing the time. The one time I used a GPS (as well as, not instead of map and compass) in it's early days it packed in on the summit of Braeriach in a white out so I don't have a lot of confidence in them and had to revert to traditional methods on that occasion.

As far as the too late start: Guilty as charged. Overslept from overindulgence the previous evening. Had I allowed myself more time, even the lack of a watch wouldn't have mattered as much (even if not advised for other navigational reasons)

Am I guilty of Munrocentricity (!) ? I suppose there must be an element of that although I don't think my profile fully indicates my walking priorities. I have actually really slowed down my Munro bagging since living in Laide as I also love to wander around Fisherfield, Torridon and Inverpolly without bothering with high hills and I also love doing through routes and some multi day stuff. But yes, I do enjoy counting down my ticks (hence triskaidekaphobia :crazy:) , although I am tempted to not compleat my missing An Teallach Munro but that is another story.

Thank you again for taking the time to pass on some of your expertise, you have made many valid and useful points, much appreciated.

Keith
User avatar
KeithS
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 893
Munros:282   Corbetts:5
Fionas:2   
Sub 2000:3   Hewitts:14
Wainwrights:9   Islands:47
Joined: Nov 1, 2010
Location: Sheffield/Laide

Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby KeithS » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:24 pm

Jaywizz wrote:Thank you for posting - I too have had a fairly recent 'not so good' experience (Donalds 'Not my finest hour') and initially felt I wanted to keep as quiet as possible about the whole day, but then was persuaded the report might help others.
Only a month to go until daylight starts increasing - and then I hope to be back on bigger hills or at least longer walks. In the meantime I shall stick to Grahams and sub 2Ks (although some of the former, with no paths, are more challenging than some of the Munros).
However provided your route is safe and you have forewarned any anxious relative, I think there is something absolutely magical about walking off a hill in the dark on a cold clear night. I recommend a good forest track or estate road for the last few miles ...................

Yes, looking forward to longer days coming. Glad you survived your Donald experience.

I agree about having a track at the end of the day if light is likely to be an issue. My last three miles were on a track and were easy by torchlight.
User avatar
KeithS
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 893
Munros:282   Corbetts:5
Fionas:2   
Sub 2000:3   Hewitts:14
Wainwrights:9   Islands:47
Joined: Nov 1, 2010
Location: Sheffield/Laide

Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby KeithS » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:28 pm

past my sell by date wrote:A good and instructive read.
I think we've all walked the wrong way off a misty hill at least once :lol: :lol: When it happens the key is to stay calm and rely on your mountaineering experience - which with 270 munros under your belt you obviously have lots of.
Sgur na -h-Ulaidh is a much underestimated hill I think - the terrain is steep and if there is a path it's not an easy one.
Also just remember that a few years ago mobile phones were unheard of.

My kids have panic attacks if they are ever more than six feet from their phones. Which doesn't explain why my daughter used to keep losing hers. :crazy:
User avatar
KeithS
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 893
Munros:282   Corbetts:5
Fionas:2   
Sub 2000:3   Hewitts:14
Wainwrights:9   Islands:47
Joined: Nov 1, 2010
Location: Sheffield/Laide

Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby KeithS » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:31 pm

Graeme D wrote:I can just imagine Bear rolling his eyes! :lol:

I don't know how he puts up with me. I think it must be all the biscuits.

Good to see you the other week.
User avatar
KeithS
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 893
Munros:282   Corbetts:5
Fionas:2   
Sub 2000:3   Hewitts:14
Wainwrights:9   Islands:47
Joined: Nov 1, 2010
Location: Sheffield/Laide

Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby KeithS » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:35 pm

What amused me is that no one has commented or criticised me for getting drunk in the Clachaig Inn the evening before :lol:
User avatar
KeithS
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 893
Munros:282   Corbetts:5
Fionas:2   
Sub 2000:3   Hewitts:14
Wainwrights:9   Islands:47
Joined: Nov 1, 2010
Location: Sheffield/Laide

Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby Beaner001 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:02 am

It's normally the dogs that are barking drunk :lol: the night before a walk for me. They especially like the Clachaig and the amount of ruffles they get.
I too don't wear a watch but it's something I will rectify. I think most people will be saying to themselves they've been in similar situations so a report like this is good to remind us all especially as the snow is here and shorter walks become longer days.
Cheers
User avatar
Beaner001
Mountain Walker
 
Posts: 763
Munros:241   Corbetts:29
Fionas:3   
Sub 2000:7   Hewitts:2
Wainwrights:1   
Joined: Sep 17, 2013
Location: Aberdeenshire

Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby Alteknacker » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:48 am

Thanks for posting - a very useful report from the viewpoint of learning.

Though I'm not sure I ever do...

"Not taking a compass bearing before coming off the hill due to it not being in my pocket and not being ars*d to get it out of my rucksack.

Relying on judgement of descent route in very poor visibility.
"

2 of my most besetting sins; and I still do it regularly :( (though for once I was able pat myself on the back after my last outing for NOT doing this :shock: ).
User avatar
Alteknacker
Scrambler
 
Posts: 3473
Munros:176   Corbetts:33
Fionas:1   
Hewitts:264
Wainwrights:118   
Joined: May 25, 2013
Location: Effete South (of WIgan, anyway)

Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby walkingpoles » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:36 am

Much more interesting report than simply bagging Sgor na h-Ulaidh with blue skyes. Thanks for sharing. It also sparked off some good comments. Thank you all for commenting.

Without your experience it would have been a lot harder to get away unscathed. Well done on your performance on the hill. The return time of 3pm maybe was a bit optimistic as it didn't allow for unforeseen troubles. And even if you didn't do your detour, light would have been gone before you reached really easy ground. If you took this into account, all is fine. It depends how experienced/comfortable you are walking in the dark and how it looks on the way up.

Compass doesn't need to stay with the map (and hence always lives somewhere where I can get it in 5 seconds. Occasionaly I keep it inside my glove). A compass alone would have been enough to find out that you were headed the wrong way down. I am also very reluctant to get out the map, especially in rain, so I carry a A4 black and white copy of the map in some pocket.

Batteries of phones drain quickly, when there is no signal (constantly trying to get signal and connect out must come at a cost). Flight mode is a good thing. And switching it off latest when it is at the 5% so that you have this to call mountain rescue (or your wife). Even when you rely on its time.

My survival tip is a fluorescent arm band to be visible on the streets.
walkingpoles
Stravaiging
 
Posts: 380
Munros:218   Corbetts:6
Sub 2000:1   Hewitts:8
Joined: Oct 3, 2016

Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby grumpy old bagger » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:49 pm

A thoughtful read, and one which must be useful to us all!
It's made me resolve to put a battery in my watch. I rely on an old Nokia phone which holds a charge for a fortnight, which makes me complacently think it'll never go flat on me even if I'm stuck overnight. I'm now reassessing that....
Good write up. Well done for being able to correct the errors!
User avatar
grumpy old bagger
Hill Bagger
 
Posts: 53
Munros:21   Corbetts:9
Fionas:11   Donalds:3
Sub 2000:8   
Wainwrights:1   
Joined: Jan 7, 2014

Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby KeithS » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:34 pm

Beaner001 wrote:It's normally the dogs that are barking drunk :lol: the night before a walk for me. They especially like the Clachaig and the amount of ruffles they get.
I too don't wear a watch but it's something I will rectify. I think most people will be saying to themselves they've been in similar situations so a report like this is good to remind us all especially as the snow is here and shorter walks become longer days.
Cheers

Definitely Bear's favourite pub (and mine). He usually gets a treat from the chef. At least he didn't get drunk, unlike his walking companion
User avatar
KeithS
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 893
Munros:282   Corbetts:5
Fionas:2   
Sub 2000:3   Hewitts:14
Wainwrights:9   Islands:47
Joined: Nov 1, 2010
Location: Sheffield/Laide

Re: Mistakes Made and Lessons Learned - A Cautionary Tale

Postby KeithS » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:39 pm

Alteknacker wrote:Thanks for posting - a very useful report from the viewpoint of learning.

Though I'm not sure I ever do...

"Not taking a compass bearing before coming off the hill due to it not being in my pocket and not being ars*d to get it out of my rucksack.

Relying on judgement of descent route in very poor visibility.
"

2 of my most besetting sins; and I still do it regularly :( (though for once I was able pat myself on the back after my last outing for NOT doing this :shock: ).


Thanks, I hope people find it useful. I would like to think that having admitted to mistakes on the site I won't make the same ones again. Different ones perhaps. :D
User avatar
KeithS
Munro compleatist
 
Posts: 893
Munros:282   Corbetts:5
Fionas:2   
Sub 2000:3   Hewitts:14
Wainwrights:9   Islands:47
Joined: Nov 1, 2010
Location: Sheffield/Laide

26 people think this report is great.
Register or Login
free to be able to rate and comment on reports (as well as access 1:25000 mapping).

PreviousNext



Can you help support Walkhighlands?


Our forum is free from adverts - your generosity keeps it running.
Can you help support Walkhighlands and this community by donating by direct debit?



Return to Walk reports - Scotland

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bartape, K Armstrong, R1ggered and 102 guests